Shadowrun 4.0

[gleichman]

The old versions of Shadowrun has always given me problems such that it
was basically unplayable for my group. Veterans of the group will no
doubt recall posts by myself as well some excellent ones by Mary who
encountered many of the same problems.

The game has been re-engineered for its fourth edition with significant
changes. Gone is the varying target numbers (its always a 5 now).
Modifiers add or remove dice. The basic skill check is a number of dice
equal to Attribute + Skill to generate a number of sucesses. No more
dice pools as such although they have an Edge Attribute that can be
spent to add dice along with some other uses.

My impression upon reading the book was that it a uninteresting system
lacking character or really any purpose beyond just resolving a task.
The updates to the setting and even the writing seemed to lack soul-
nothing was there that made me want to play the game.

Mechanically the die system is certainly an improvement, but odds are
still difficult to determine and the huge impact of Attributes
(basically equal to skill but with wider application) still leave me
completely cold.

The published adventures online seem to be a list of the worse features
of the past with none of the good. They're intended to push the dirt of
the setting in your face, you're double-crossed at every turn, the
rails for this railroad are thick and high. No where is there an epic
or mystical feel that some of the previous adventures touched.

In short, I'm seeing no reason to buy anything else in the line and
certainly no reason to exchange my current HERO based version of the
setting for the official one.

But I thought I ask here if anyone has a different opinion or see if
anyone had a similar reaction.

[Blackheart]

Post by gleichman
But I thought I ask here if anyone has a different opinion or see if
anyone had a similar reaction.

I stopped caring about Shadowrun the first time I played it back in
1991. It took us 4 hours to make characters that were gunned down in 10
minutes.

[gleichman]

Post by Blackheart
I stopped caring about Shadowrun the first time I played it back in
1991. It took us 4 hours to make characters that were gunned down in 10
minutes.

We didn't have anything like that problem (being somewhat use to rather
dangerous game mechanics). But I could see it happening easily enough.

[mcv]

Post by gleichman

Post by Blackheart
I stopped caring about Shadowrun the first time I played it back in
1991. It took us 4 hours to make characters that were gunned down in 10
minutes.

We didn't have anything like that problem (being somewhat use to rather
dangerous game mechanics). But I could see it happening easily enough.

I've played way more deadly systems, but Shadowrun is deadly enough that
I consider Body by far the most important attribute in the game.


mcv.

[mcv]

Post by gleichman
The game has been re-engineered for its fourth edition with significant
changes. Gone is the varying target numbers (its always a 5 now).
Modifiers add or remove dice. The basic skill check is a number of dice
equal to Attribute + Skill to generate a number of sucesses. No more
dice pools as such although they have an Edge Attribute that can be
spent to add dice along with some other uses.

This is a huge improvement. The varying target numbers seemed like an
interesting and fun mechanic, but it was ultimately broken. The new
system is less quirky, but much better, smoother and faster.

I've got the feeling very high Edge may be a bit too powerful, but I'm
not sure. It very much depends on GM fiat how often Edge is replenished.
Even if it is a bit on the powerful side, I don't think it's bad.

Post by gleichman
My impression upon reading the book was that it a uninteresting system
lacking character or really any purpose beyond just resolving a task.
The updates to the setting and even the writing seemed to lack soul-
nothing was there that made me want to play the game.

I really like the wireless matrix. The old matrix sucked, this one is
much more usable.

Post by gleichman
Mechanically the die system is certainly an improvement, but odds are
still difficult to determine and the huge impact of Attributes
(basically equal to skill but with wider application) still leave me
completely cold.

I think it's reasonably balanced. Attributes are great but expensive, and
without skill, you get a penalty foor defaulting. You really do want skill
in the stuff you want to be really good at. Basically it's a matter of
jack-of-all-trades versus specialisation.

Post by gleichman
The published adventures online seem to be a list of the worse features
of the past with none of the good. They're intended to push the dirt of
the setting in your face, you're double-crossed at every turn, the
rails for this railroad are thick and high. No where is there an epic
or mystical feel that some of the previous adventures touched.

I haven't looked at online adventures, but if yoou don't like them,
you can always make your own or convert older adventures.

Post by gleichman
In short, I'm seeing no reason to buy anything else in the line and
certainly no reason to exchange my current HERO based version of the
setting for the official one.

If you really like your version, you should definitely keep using that
one, but there are definitely people out there who prefer SR4 over
older versions.

Post by gleichman
But I thought I ask here if anyone has a different opinion or see if
anyone had a similar reaction.

I asked for opinions on SR4 on r.g.f.cyber a couple of months ago, and
the responses were pretty unanimously positive. The game still has the
old Shadowrun spirit, but updated, more modern and more playable.

I've got the feeling that street samurai lost some of their unique
advantages, though. The effect of lots of useful minor cyberware,
smartlinks, most importantly, can also be gotten from regular gear.
For example, my physical adept wears glasses with smartlink, flare
compensation and thermographic vision, and earplugs with hearing +3
and spatial thingy. But all other cyberware (and bioware!) is still
really good. I've got the feeling that some cyberware is becoming
obsolete because of their more essence-friendly (but also more
expensive) bioware versions.

Oh, and the prefab characters in the book are broken. Several have
silly disadvantages (a dwarf with allergy to gold?), or just aren't
very well designed; several have a Body attribute too low for the
armor they're wearing. And several people in my group used those
characters (the smuggler, the covert op and the drone rigger),
because they didn't feel like making their own characters. There's
a lot of choice, and this would have been a great way to get your
campaign started quickly if the characters had been designed just
a little bit better than this.


mcv.

[gleichman]

Post by mcv
This is a huge improvement. The varying target numbers seemed like an
interesting and fun mechanic, but it was ultimately broken. The new
system is less quirky, but much better, smoother and faster.

It's still clumsy and counter-intuitive IMO although I would agree it's
certainly an improvement.

Post by mcv
I really like the wireless matrix. The old matrix sucked, this one is
much more usable.

I never had problems with the old matrix (it's still there btw) and
loved the favor it brought to the game.

The wireless matrix blows my SoD and basically (as it uses the same
mechanics and settings as everything else) adds nothing of interest
besides minor characterization.

Post by mcv
I think it's reasonably balanced.

I'm wasn't so much worried about the balance (although there is likely
serious questions there) as I was bored by it.

Plus there's a common break between gaming style over the importance of
attributes and SR is certainly strongly at one side of that break.

Post by mcv
I haven't looked at online adventures, but if yoou don't like them,
you can always make your own or convert older adventures.

I do that now and have no interest in switching systems so I can do it
some more :)

Post by mcv
I asked for opinions on SR4 on r.g.f.cyber a couple of months ago, and
the responses were pretty unanimously positive. The game still has the
old Shadowrun spirit, but updated, more modern and more playable.

I'm seeing some major changes in tone. And a depressing sameness
throughout the product- which is likely directly related to it's being
more playable.

I do however think that all in all my reaction isn't really that
different than it's always been. There are *concepts* in SR that I find
appealing, but really the product line never impressed me mechanically
or in adventure structure.

[mcv]

Post by gleichman

Post by mcv
This is a huge improvement. The varying target numbers seemed like an
interesting and fun mechanic, but it was ultimately broken. The new
system is less quirky, but much better, smoother and faster.

It's still clumsy and counter-intuitive IMO although I would agree it's
certainly an improvement.

Every task resolution iis clumsy or counter-intuitive in one way or
another. This one is certainly not one of the worst systems, and
it's sufficiently like the old system that you can see it as a big
fix and not a totally different system.

Post by gleichman

Post by mcv
I really like the wireless matrix. The old matrix sucked, this one is
much more usable.

I never had problems with the old matrix (it's still there btw) and
loved the favor it brought to the game.
The wireless matrix blows my SoD and basically (as it uses the same
mechanics and settings as everything else) adds nothing of interest
besides minor characterization.

To me it's exactly the opposite. The old matrix was hard to use,
because it basically removed the decker from the group. And at the
same time, it was not very realistic and being overtaken by modern
technology. The wireless matrix is much more reasonable, and I can
see it working in a group of shadowrunners.

Post by gleichman

Post by mcv
I haven't looked at online adventures, but if yoou don't like them,
you can always make your own or convert older adventures.

I do that now and have no interest in switching systems so I can do it
some more :)

No one is forcing you. But I like the new system a lot. It fixes a lot
of problems with the old system, and while 3rd to 4th edition is a much
bigger overhaul than 2nd to 3rd (which was basically a bug-fix release),
and there are a lot of changes that you'll have to get used to, it's not
hard to learn, it's smoother and faster, and it's still shadowrun.

Post by gleichman

Post by mcv
I asked for opinions on SR4 on r.g.f.cyber a couple of months ago, and
the responses were pretty unanimously positive. The game still has the
old Shadowrun spirit, but updated, more modern and more playable.

I'm seeing some major changes in tone. And a depressing sameness
throughout the product- which is likely directly related to it's being
more playable.

When I first leafed through it, I had a similar impression. Was this
still shadowrun? Didn't they kill the spirit of the game? Doesn't it
all look the same? But it turns out to be the same game I've always
played, except it runs a bit smoother.

There's one really big problem with the 4th edition that I forgot to
mention, though: Riggers. They're mentioned, but just as a kind of
hacker. No problem with that (makes sense in a way), but our rigger
had no idea what to do with his army of drones. I hope we'll see a
Rigger book soon that adds a bit more detail to the poor rigger.

I really like the idea that a rigger/hacker hybrid looks like a very
playable option.

Post by gleichman
I do however think that all in all my reaction isn't really that
different than it's always been. There are *concepts* in SR that I find
appealing, but really the product line never impressed me mechanically
or in adventure structure.

The concept is still there, and the mechanics are better than they were.
You still have to add the actual magic yourself, as with any game.


mcv.

[gleichman]

Post by mcv
The concept is still there, and the mechanics are better than they were.
You still have to add the actual magic yourself, as with any game.

Well, so far everything you've pointed out has been major turnoffs for me.
You may be able to find magic in it, but unless there's something else that
you and I've missed I'm going to pass.

At least I know that it has its fans.