D20 "Simple"

[TeH Inspired Ogre]

Hey folks, first off, tell me if this isint being posted to the right
place. Second, this is one try, and one try only, if I dont like the
way this community responds (Flamy, less than helpful-ey...) Ill wash
my hands of it and walk away.

I am thinking about creating a d20 game system that probably breaks all
the OGL and d20 rules, but I dont give a damn, I'm not selling it, just
trying to have a little fun. The whole premise is to take the whole d20
game and boil it down to its bearest components. Here is the list of
what I feel is needed.

* 6 base statistics (Str, Dex, Con, Wis, Int, Cha)
* Familiarity (I want d20 users to be able to step in and see that this
IS d20, just... well... Simple)
* "Realistic" chances of success and failure. (This is a math based
requirement, I dont want to severely alter the chances of success and
failure in an average d20 game)
* No more than 4 classes, preferably none! (thats right, no classes,
interesting thought)
* Make the game more freeform, this should appeal to people who want to
ROLE-play, and feel that maybe takeing some of the more complex math
and dice out of the equation would help take the ROLL out of ROLL-play.
* Limited growth potential (I dont want the game to spawn immediate
ideas for addons and suppliments, it should be able to stand on its
own, in terms of variety)
* No monsters except those that the players imagine (I dont want to go
through the MM and convert every damn thing.)
* NO prep time required (it always helps) (the thought here is that
players and DMs should be able to go, "Hey, lets play DnD" and then do
it, without any more than some dice and about 5 mins of prep, this
means that character creation needs to be boiled down to about 3 steps
at most.



Okay, a tough list, here is what I have so far...

* Throw out skills, all classes, AC, HP, DR, SR, spells, monsters and
weapons. Essential, down to the 6 base stats. If you have to jump
across a ditch, roll a str, if you have to walk across a tightrope,
roll dex, and so on.
* Create new "damage" system, make it stat based. So, now there is HP
for every statistic. If you bring a player's statistic points from str
down to 0, they die, likewise statistic points from int.
* All players get one "freat" per level, and a d4, d6, d6, d8 d8, and
d10. They roll each die and add the result (plus or minus their stat
modifier) to each statistic point total. So, your going with a classic
half-orc killing machine, your likely to do d10s for your str points
each time, and likely to put the d4s in cha.
* Defender USUALLY chooses which way to defend. An attacker has to beat
one of their stats to hit them, and thus damage goes to that statistic
point. A mage casts a spell, and hits the orc, who chooses to try to
absorb or resist the damage, so he tightens up, and has the mage roll
agains his con. The mage rolls a 15+4 (int) a 19, this beats the orc's
18 con, and thus the damage goes to the con points.
* Possibly a system that diminishes the benefits of a stat based on the
damage that statistic point has taken, I hesitate because I can think
of no SIMPLE way to do this.

I have lots of questions.

* how do we decide damage dice? How do we seperate and make distinct
magic and melee, ranged and close-quarters. Possibly asign the same d4,
d6, d6, d8, d8 and d10 on a perminent basis to the type of damage that
a statistic can deal?
* How does one deal damage with constitution. I can make it 'logical'
for all stats except con. Str is when one uses muscles to generate
damage, Dex uses accuracy, int, wis, and cha use knowledge, intuition,
and force of will. Same can be said about defence, except with Str, how
is defending with Str different than defending with Con?
* Feats have to do EVERYTHING, spells, skills, and feats, this could be
a nightmare, here are some thoughts.
* Feats and "skills" interact based on a maximum "unfeated" attempt.
One cannot jump across a gorge (Str DC 20) without the "Acrobatics"
feat, because the max DC one can attempt is a 15 without the
appropriate feat.
* Feats and "spells" simply have 8 (16, with improved?) magic feats,
one for each school of magic, anything in that school can be done
within logical bounds based on level.
* The question comes up again and again, what EXACTLY, is a character
capable of. This is important, as character growth (and thus a very
interesting aspect of gaming) is dependant on character limitations.
Standard d20 says "Characters are capable of basically nothing, unless
otherwise specified, here are the exceptions." d20 simple seems to be
saying, "Characters are capable of everything, unless otherwise stated"
On its face, I dont have a problem with this, but then again, level
NEEDS to matter, character growth as a concept needs to exist,
otherwise, it can get rather dull.


Thoughts please! Id like to hear constructive criticism, but mostly, I
want to hear solutions. I dont care if you dont like this idea, I care
if your a smart person, and you have ideas about how to overcome the
hurdles I have posted here, and how to overcome ones I cant see.

If you have math and statistic skills, I want especially to discuss the
aspect of this I CANNOT do on my own. How do I avoid haveing one thing
or another too powerful, and more importantly, I dont make a game
statistically too hard, or too easy.

Thanks, Im hopeing for the best.

[Nicole Massey]

For damage, use a very simple rule. The die rolled is the next die up from
the number of the stat. So, an 18 strength does D20 damage. A strength of 1
gets a coin toss. Since you're going simple, then all weapons are the same.
Use the appropriate stat for the determination -- Str for melee attacks, Int
for spells, Wis for priestly things, Dex for missiles and martial arts
sweeps, Con for wrestling and martial arts body slams, and Cha for
personality attacks. (That answers your Con issue as well.)

for simplicity, I'd personally eliminate the feats. Also, to speed up
chargen, I would use eighty five points across the six stats. (This is an
old first edition tourney character creation scheme, and I like it because
it balances parties much more than rolling, and every character is viable
unless the player is a total nimrod.)

HP can be Con times level. Of course, this will quickly breed tanks, so half
of con, rounded down, times level is probably safer.

I'm all for eliminating dice rolls as much as possible from chargen, as a
good player can then craft exactly the character they want. Of course, this
will mean that every PC caster will have an 18 Int, but hey, they're
superlatives.

I like the idea, as it takes much of what I hate about D20 away from the
game. It's far more streamlined, much easier to create characters, and it's
not as grossly munchkin as D20 usually is. I'm not a math guru, so someone
else will have to help out on that.

But if you're paring it down to a stat based system, why not drop the levels
too?

Oh, and pet peeve of mine, with this sytem, you can very easily eliminate
combat rounds and use free form init. (I hate combat rounds.)

Post by TeH Inspired Ogre
Hey folks, first off, tell me if this isint being posted to the right
place. Second, this is one try, and one try only, if I dont like the
way this community responds (Flamy, less than helpful-ey...) Ill wash
my hands of it and walk away.
I am thinking about creating a d20 game system that probably breaks all
the OGL and d20 rules, but I dont give a damn, I'm not selling it, just
trying to have a little fun. The whole premise is to take the whole d20
game and boil it down to its bearest components. Here is the list of
what I feel is needed.
* 6 base statistics (Str, Dex, Con, Wis, Int, Cha)
* Familiarity (I want d20 users to be able to step in and see that this
IS d20, just... well... Simple)
* "Realistic" chances of success and failure. (This is a math based
requirement, I dont want to severely alter the chances of success and
failure in an average d20 game)
* No more than 4 classes, preferably none! (thats right, no classes,
interesting thought)
* Make the game more freeform, this should appeal to people who want to
ROLE-play, and feel that maybe takeing some of the more complex math
and dice out of the equation would help take the ROLL out of ROLL-play.
* Limited growth potential (I dont want the game to spawn immediate
ideas for addons and suppliments, it should be able to stand on its
own, in terms of variety)
* No monsters except those that the players imagine (I dont want to go
through the MM and convert every damn thing.)
* NO prep time required (it always helps) (the thought here is that
players and DMs should be able to go, "Hey, lets play DnD" and then do
it, without any more than some dice and about 5 mins of prep, this
means that character creation needs to be boiled down to about 3 steps
at most.
Okay, a tough list, here is what I have so far...
* Throw out skills, all classes, AC, HP, DR, SR, spells, monsters and
weapons. Essential, down to the 6 base stats. If you have to jump
across a ditch, roll a str, if you have to walk across a tightrope,
roll dex, and so on.
* Create new "damage" system, make it stat based. So, now there is HP
for every statistic. If you bring a player's statistic points from str
down to 0, they die, likewise statistic points from int.
* All players get one "freat" per level, and a d4, d6, d6, d8 d8, and
d10. They roll each die and add the result (plus or minus their stat
modifier) to each statistic point total. So, your going with a classic
half-orc killing machine, your likely to do d10s for your str points
each time, and likely to put the d4s in cha.
* Defender USUALLY chooses which way to defend. An attacker has to beat
one of their stats to hit them, and thus damage goes to that statistic
point. A mage casts a spell, and hits the orc, who chooses to try to
absorb or resist the damage, so he tightens up, and has the mage roll
agains his con. The mage rolls a 15+4 (int) a 19, this beats the orc's
18 con, and thus the damage goes to the con points.
* Possibly a system that diminishes the benefits of a stat based on the
damage that statistic point has taken, I hesitate because I can think
of no SIMPLE way to do this.
I have lots of questions.
* how do we decide damage dice? How do we seperate and make distinct
magic and melee, ranged and close-quarters. Possibly asign the same d4,
d6, d6, d8, d8 and d10 on a perminent basis to the type of damage that
a statistic can deal?
* How does one deal damage with constitution. I can make it 'logical'
for all stats except con. Str is when one uses muscles to generate
damage, Dex uses accuracy, int, wis, and cha use knowledge, intuition,
and force of will. Same can be said about defence, except with Str, how
is defending with Str different than defending with Con?
* Feats have to do EVERYTHING, spells, skills, and feats, this could be
a nightmare, here are some thoughts.
* Feats and "skills" interact based on a maximum "unfeated" attempt.
One cannot jump across a gorge (Str DC 20) without the "Acrobatics"
feat, because the max DC one can attempt is a 15 without the
appropriate feat.
* Feats and "spells" simply have 8 (16, with improved?) magic feats,
one for each school of magic, anything in that school can be done
within logical bounds based on level.
* The question comes up again and again, what EXACTLY, is a character
capable of. This is important, as character growth (and thus a very
interesting aspect of gaming) is dependant on character limitations.
Standard d20 says "Characters are capable of basically nothing, unless
otherwise specified, here are the exceptions." d20 simple seems to be
saying, "Characters are capable of everything, unless otherwise stated"
On its face, I dont have a problem with this, but then again, level
NEEDS to matter, character growth as a concept needs to exist,
otherwise, it can get rather dull.
Thoughts please! Id like to hear constructive criticism, but mostly, I
want to hear solutions. I dont care if you dont like this idea, I care
if your a smart person, and you have ideas about how to overcome the
hurdles I have posted here, and how to overcome ones I cant see.
If you have math and statistic skills, I want especially to discuss the
aspect of this I CANNOT do on my own. How do I avoid haveing one thing
or another too powerful, and more importantly, I dont make a game
statistically too hard, or too easy.
Thanks, Im hopeing for the best.

[TeH Inspired Ogre]

There is certainly some good ideas in here, but I have some concerns
with where you are going.

To remove levels entirely would make this less of a system, and more of
a way to freestyle role-play (which is not a bad thing, just not what I
am going for.)

Essentialy what you suggest is to play with stats only, which is, like
I said, doable. But not where I am going with this.

I belive in levels, and I feel character growth is an important part of
d20 gameing. I also removed everything that makes characters different
from eachother already, so I think removeing feats removes the last
part of the system that makes characters different from eachother
outside discriptions and stats.

There IS an intreaging thought there, with the damage dice being paired
to the stat. But this system seems mathematically troubleing. I want
some thoughts on this, but it seems to me that this, with a point buy
system of any kind, will only increase the "requirement" that all
characters have at least one 18. With rolled stats, the advantages of
luck are undue.

I think I would like to stick with d4, d6, d6, d8, d8, d10. Character
creation becomes defined as this.

1: Roll or buy stats (I leave this choice up to individual DMs.)
1a: Apply racial modifiers (if any)
2: categorize stats, assigning a d4, d6, d6, d8, d8, and a d10, one
each, to each stat. take the max of each die, add the stat modifier,
and come up with the statistic point for each.
3: Choose feats.
4: Define character (this is NOT a rules-based step, its a
collaborative DM/Player effort to define the capabilities and
limitations of the character, the stuff that falls outside the pervue
of feats.)

With this, the ENTIRE system rests on the feats. ALL capabilities and
limitations have to be defined in feats.

Thoughts?

[Nicole Massey]

Why chose feats over skills? Skills cover a wider rnge of options. Also, the
player gets more of them, and they're less powerful than feats, so it would
be easier to define acharacter by skills.

Of course, this does make it similar to the stat/skill systems out there,
but that's basically what a stat/feats system is too, only the feats are far
more powerful and far less numerous.

Post by TeH Inspired Ogre
There is certainly some good ideas in here, but I have some concerns
with where you are going.
To remove levels entirely would make this less of a system, and more of
a way to freestyle role-play (which is not a bad thing, just not what I
am going for.)
Essentialy what you suggest is to play with stats only, which is, like
I said, doable. But not where I am going with this.
I belive in levels, and I feel character growth is an important part of
d20 gameing. I also removed everything that makes characters different
from eachother already, so I think removeing feats removes the last
part of the system that makes characters different from eachother
outside discriptions and stats.
There IS an intreaging thought there, with the damage dice being paired
to the stat. But this system seems mathematically troubleing. I want
some thoughts on this, but it seems to me that this, with a point buy
system of any kind, will only increase the "requirement" that all
characters have at least one 18. With rolled stats, the advantages of
luck are undue.
I think I would like to stick with d4, d6, d6, d8, d8, d10. Character
creation becomes defined as this.
1: Roll or buy stats (I leave this choice up to individual DMs.)
1a: Apply racial modifiers (if any)
2: categorize stats, assigning a d4, d6, d6, d8, d8, and a d10, one
each, to each stat. take the max of each die, add the stat modifier,
and come up with the statistic point for each.
3: Choose feats.
4: Define character (this is NOT a rules-based step, its a
collaborative DM/Player effort to define the capabilities and
limitations of the character, the stuff that falls outside the pervue
of feats.)
With this, the ENTIRE system rests on the feats. ALL capabilities and
limitations have to be defined in feats.
Thoughts?

[Peter Knutsen (usenet)]

Post by Nicole Massey
Why chose feats over skills? Skills cover a wider rnge of options. Also, the
player gets more of them, and they're less powerful than feats, so it would
be easier to define acharacter by skills.

Try ditching both skills and feats, and use sub-attributes instead.

[TeH Inspired Ogre]

How so, Peter? I am very much in favor of getting this as simple as I
can, and feats is the last bit of complication.

As to skills, skills are modified statistics, they can be pared down to
the statistics.

[Peter Knutsen (usenet)]

Post by TeH Inspired Ogre
How so, Peter? I am very much in favor of getting this as simple as I
can, and feats is the last bit of complication.

Look at which things you'd want to use DEX for: Probably a kind of AC,
and Jumping, and Balance, and Sneaking. Thus you invent four
sub-attributes of DEX, so that players may raise or lower AC, Jumping,
Balance or Sneaking seperately, from the base DEX value, during
character creation.

If you take this to the logical conclusion, you can do away with feats.

Post by TeH Inspired Ogre
As to skills, skills are modified statistics, they can be pared down to
the statistics.

[Ed Chauvin IV]

Post by Peter Knutsen (usenet)

Post by TeH Inspired Ogre
How so, Peter? I am very much in favor of getting this as simple as I
can, and feats is the last bit of complication.

Look at which things you'd want to use DEX for: Probably a kind of AC,
and Jumping, and Balance, and Sneaking. Thus you invent four
sub-attributes of DEX, so that players may raise or lower AC, Jumping,
Balance or Sneaking seperately, from the base DEX value, during
character creation.
If you take this to the logical conclusion, you can do away with feats.

The logical conclusion of that is the elimination of Skills. Feats
are completely different.



Ed Chauvin IV