On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 14:22:10 +0100, Zenobia
Post by ZenobiaThere are no binary opposites of Good vs. Evil (with neutral
somewhere in the middle). There is just a standard of what
is considered good.
So people who murder others for financial gain are "good, but
not as good as others,"--i.e.: those who don't?
Such people don't eat babies - that only happens in fantasy
stories where everything is neatly packaged into Good and Evil.
What a coinkydink... we're talking about fantasy stories.
Some murders probably always remember to give their mothers a
birthday or Mother's Day present. I don't. So in that respect
such people would be better than me. In other respects they're
clearly not as good as me.
Where did anyone say that a character with the Evil label doesn't have some
Good qualities? Any type of character can love their parents, siblings,
spouses, children, friends, and neighbours. What matters is their general
outlook. How do they feel about the rest of the world?
That general outlook you describe (D&D alignment) is defined
from a moral compass taken from everyday common sense thought.
I'm not a moral relativist - I can see that there are bad and
You're not a moral relativist. Odd, over the course of these threads
you've advanced most of the moral relativism points of view. But hey,
you're not one. You just talk like them.
Post by Zenobiagood actions. It's the way the label of good and bad is applied
to characters as a game mechanic that I have problems with -
because those Good and Bad notions come from modern Western
ideas not from anything in a specific fantasy world.
Those Good and Bad notions come from several fantasy worlds. They're
generic abstractions of ideas that have popped up all over the place.
Post by ZenobiaI appreciate that it's a lot of work to impose an alternative
fantasy moral framework to the D&D framework. Too much work for
most. That would be a valid criticism of my arguments. It
saddens me that I don't see that criticism. people keep on
saying that, with D&D alignment, anything goes. In practice
anything doesn't go because it's way too much work to make it
so.
Prove it. That's all we ask. Provide ONE example where you cannot do
SOME SPECIFIC THING because D&D alignment gets in the way.
Post by ZenobiaFor example, a game with an completely alternative moral compass
- Empire of the Petal Throne - has a tiny number of players.
It's too hard for people to get their heads around it.
Funny thing (bad for you). I still have that game, original (1975)
boxed set, right here on the shelf. Got it from a guy who used to
play with M.A.R. Barker. Still in good condition, too. I liked
playing it. One of my guildmates in EQ, her last name is an EPT name;
she used to play it also. I tried giving my Rogue an EPT last name
but it came out too long (20 character limit on surnames).
Yes, I've played EPT. This is some of what it has to say about
Alignment:
-----
For convenience's sake (and not to reflect reality necessarily), all
characters are divided into two basic types: those serving the Good
Gods and their Cohorts, and those serving their Evil counterparts.
There are no "neutrals on Tekumel...
Good characters serve one of the Five Good Gods or one of their
Cohorts, and Evil characters similarly worship one of the Evil
Tlokiriqaluyal or one of their Cohorts. Each player names his or her
God, Goddess, or Cohort at the beginning of the game.
-----
Quite a bit different from D&D, yes?
Now, if you were thinking of the *cultural* interactions, that's a
different matter entirely. That was when you could wind up dead
really fast by saying the wrong thing to the wrong person. Quite
often it had nothing to do with Good/Evil. If you were Good and you
(even accidentally) insulted a Good noble, you'd wind up in a lethal
duel. If you were Evil, you'd simply be taken away and impaled.
By the alignment definitions of D&D, most people in Tsolyanu, when you
examine their *culture*, were Neutral or Evil, due to their rampant
xenophobia and their indifference to killing people from other cities.
Now, guess what? I can take any D&D character and map him to that
cultural compass and tell you the results. Similarly, I can take any
EPT character and map him to the D&D alignment moral compass. And it
doesn't affect either character one damned iota. All it tells me is
what each character is like *in the other system's frame of
reference*.
Try again.
Post by ZenobiaSo why don't you guys just admit that the D&D alignment system
is there because it's felt that something has to be there and
the D&D system is pretty easy for most people to grasp because
it draws on common sense? - Modern Common sense notions of good
and evil and fantasy paradigms from writers such as Tolkien and
Moorcock.
We've never disagreed, except insofar as we believe it was originally
intended to promote Heroic Fantasy.
We disagree when you say it's a straightjacket.
We disagree when you say there are no holy wars being fought.
(Actually, we call you a liar, but that's another matter.)
We disagree when you say assassins and soldiers are morally the same.
We disagree when you say that Evil comes from Christianity.
We disagree when you say that no civilization before Christ used Evil
to describe human behaviour.
However, we don't disagree when you say the alignment system is easy
to grasp. That's why we are so frustrated when you repeated
demonstrate that *you don't grasp it*.
Post by ZenobiaThis pretense that anything goes is wearing a bit thin. It seems
that most people are too busy blowing their own trumpets about
how, in their wonderful games, "anything goes" - to actually
acknowledge that there are quite severe restrictions upon what
most people can cope with.
/bow
And you *still* haven't shown how it restricts me. You say, right
there above, that "there are quite severe restrictions". But you
absolutely, categorically, refuse to give even one example.
Post by ZenobiaSubject: Worst Meta-gaming Experience Ever
rec.games.frp.misc,rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.games.frp.gurps
is quite interesting because it's looking at one of the reasons
why anything doesn't go. It's only by understanding barriers
such as these that a role-gamer can overcome such barriers and
make the fantasy a better game.
I guess there are just a tiny minority, like me, who see D&D
alignment as a different kind of barrier.
You keep on blathering about the barrier, the restrictions, the
straightjacket, the forcing you to go some way, and you never give
examples.
Instead, you go kiting off on all sorts of paths, showing your abysmal
ignorance of history, current events, classical writing, ethics, game
rules, and practically every other field of intellectual endeavour to
which you place your hand. Is it any wonder we consider you a fool?
Post by ZenobiaI appreciate that the
imposition of an alternative moral compass to D&D alignment is
always a restriction on what goes. The only point I'm making
here is that every moral compass imposed upon a fantasy game
restricts but each different moral compass restricts in a
different way. I'm just looking for different restrictions to
those of D&D alignment.
Is a thermometer a restriction on what temperature an object can be
at?
Is a foot-long ruler a restriction on how long an object can be?
Is a magnetic compass a restriction on what direction you can go?
A moral compass provides NO RESTRICTIONS. It POINTS. That's all it
does. It says "this is in this direction, that is in that direction".
It most definitely does not say "that's the direction to EVIL, so you
MUST go that way".
Show JUST ONCE how ANY moral compass restricts you. While you're at
it, show the one you're going to use in place of D&D alignment, and
show how it DOES NOT restrict you.
Post by ZenobiaI can't really say anything more on the matter.
No. As D&D defines alignements, disrespect for life to
increase your own standing is Evil.
As defined by D&D. My problem with it is that it's too boring to
have this framework imposed upon the game.
You're entitled to that opinion... even if it doesn't hold true for others.
Thank you. I may be entitled to that opinion by you but most
people here (news:rec.games.frp.dnd) wouldn't entitle me to it.
Wrong yet again. We don't care what opinions you hold. Hold any
opinion you want. We care when you lie.
Some say the Irish are daft. You're adding a whole new level of
daftness to it.