Discussion:
Flaws that all humans have?
(too old to reply)
Peter Knutsen
2007-10-15 21:00:04 UTC
Permalink
I posted this on the RPG-Create mailing list half an hour ago.


In Modern Action RPG, all players must select one physical Weakness for
their characters, as well as 3 psychological Flaws (although they can
choose to combine 2 Flaws into one Major Flaw, or pay some points to
have one Flaw less).

Flaws are psychological deficiencies; usually they represent
vulnerability towards some temptation, or greater weakness towards
something which is a temptation for everyone.

Almost all Flaws have strengths, rated in the number of dice that the
player must roll to see if the Flaw is triggered (the Sheltered Life
Flaw is one exception. It is instead a multiplier, applied to all
discomfort penalties, such as hunger or cold). Normally the strength is
3d6 for a normal Flaw and 4d6 for a Major Flaw, but for Flaws wher
temptations are very common, such as Alcoholism, the strengths are
instead 2d6 and 3d6 respectively, and for Flaws where triggeres are
rare, such as phobias against rare phenomena, the strengths may be 4d6
and 6d6.


But in addition to these 3 player-chosen Flaws, all characters have one
universal Flaw, meaning one that all humans have, and which one cannot
get rid of: A Sexual Orientation.

Available options are Heterosexual, Homosexual and Bisexual (unlike in
Sagatafl, being seducable by both sexes - bisexuality - is not viewed as
a greater disadvantages, but this is due to MA RPG being more
coarse-grained. Also unlike in Sagatafl, players cannot pay points for
the privilege of their characters being Asexual).

Simply put, all characters (all teenaged and adult characters anyway -
there should be an explicit exemption for child characters) are sexual
creatures, and as such vulnerable to sexual temptations, and to PCs and
NPCs who use the Seduction subskill.

This universal Flaw normally has a strength of 2d6, but the Lecherous
Flaw increases the strength by 1d6, and the Major Flaw of Very Lecherous
increases its strength by 2d6. Thus Lecherous/Very Lecherous does not
itself have a Flaw strength, but instead adds to another Flaw's strength.

I'm happy with Sexual Orientation being a universal Flaw. It fits our
species, and it fits most other species found in typical RPG universes
(fantasy or space opera) as well.

But should Sexual Orientation be the only universal Flaw?


There are arguments for this. For instance, it is something players are
likely to forget. They are much more likely to remember, as a natural
thing and without having to think about it, other common human fallacies
(see below), but sexual orientation, weakness towards sexual temptation,
is often seen as inconvenient.

I also don't want to turn MA RPG into Pendragon, where each character
has to have a rating for 10 or 15 or 20 different psychological
statistics. So far the list of Flaws for each character has 4 entries (3
chosen ones plus the universal), and I'd like not to go above 5 or 6.


One obvious additional universal Flaw, to me, is Pride. I already have
this as a standard player-choosable Flaw, but it seems to me that MA RPG
characters are a highly competent bunch of men and women.

Characters built on the standard budget, 200 points, are the equivalent
of 150 pointers in GURPS, at least the equivalent of 75 pointers in Hero
System, and they're not far behind starting characters in Feng Shui (in
fact MA RPG 200 pointers are probably on par with Feng Shui starting
characters, it's just that all the Feng Shui character classes are
heavily optimized for one specific skill, which will be rare in MA RPG).

In contrast to this, an average person (i.e. a non-adventurer) is
buildable on 25 or 50 points, depending on what kinds of skills he has.

Doesn't it make sense for such characters, characters who are *much*
more competent than the rest of us, to be noticably proud by default?

Individual players can, of course, take steps to make their characters
less Proud (I have an idea for a mechanic, a Veteran trait, i.e. a trait
intended to simulate experienced adventurers, which can be used to
reduce one or more such universal Flaws), but they have to do this
actively - if they don't, the default is what happens.

As for making a character more Proud than this default, that's just a
Flaw in the same style as Lecherous and Very Lecherous. It increases the
Proud rating by 1d6, or by 2d6 for the Very Proud Flaw.


But is Proud a good choice, to go along Sexual Orientation, on the list
of Flaws which almost all human adventurers have? (Non-adventurers have
Sexual Orientation too, but not Proud.)

If yes, are those the two Flaws that should be universal? Or can someone
suggest a third Flaw to put on the list?

I've thought briefly about Curious as a universal Flaw, but in terms of
Flaws, I long ago decided to split the phenomenon of curiosity into two,
Curiosity, which is shallow (modelled after the Curious disadvantage in
GURPS), and Inquisitive, which is a deeper, more adventurer-like (or
reporter-like) desire to know the causes of things (rather than, as the
GURPS core rule book says, to e.g. know the function of a partiuclar,
very visible red button).

I think players are able to supply curiosity themselves, without being
prompted by the rules system. Also, the curiosity of one character tends
to end up involving the entire party, and anyway it just feels better to
me to make this optional, so that ever party will (on average) only have
one or two PCs who are Curious or Inquisitive (or both), rather than
everyone being it game-mechanically curious.


Likewise, Special Flaws, which are non-psychological Flaws, of which
each player may choose one (so that instead of choosing 3 psychological
Flaws, the player can choose 2 psychological Flaws and 1 Special Flaw).
These are either developmental disads (barring the characters from
starting with or ever acquiring certain traits), or else
external/social, such as poverty (having fewer monetary ressources), or
having debts (which may force the character to accept deals and jobs, to
avoid falling into medium-duration poverty), or being a wanted criminal,
or having a family or spouse.

This last one, family or spouse (or girlfriend/boyfriend), might seem
like an obvious candidate for universality, but that's exactly the kind
of thing I don't want to force upon players. It should be there for
those who want it (e.g. as a way to fill in a single Flaw slot, if
you're unhappy about loading up on the psychological ones), but not
every adventurer has a Family or a Clan or a Wife or a Boyfriend.
--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org
DougL
2007-10-16 20:17:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Knutsen
But should Sexual Orientation be the only universal Flaw?
Depending on how you handle tollerance for Pain/Discomfort/nasty
conditions it may or may not make sense to treat such things as flaws
or as modifiers to existing flaws.

DougL
Peter Knutsen
2007-10-17 00:25:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by DougL
Post by Peter Knutsen
But should Sexual Orientation be the only universal Flaw?
Depending on how you handle tollerance for Pain/Discomfort/nasty
conditions it may or may not make sense to treat such things as flaws
or as modifiers to existing flaws.
Discomfort and nasty conditions give generic penalties to dice rolls,
such as -1 or -2, for situations such as hunger, or cold, or fatigue, or
lack of sleep. Characters with the Sheltered Life Flaw then recieve a
multiplier to such penalties, of x2, or of x3 if they have Sheltered
Life as a Major Flaw. The GM is also told that he may give minor
penalties to characters with these Flaws, where the other PCs aren't
penalized; for instance the GM may say that it is slightly cold,
relative to the clothes the PCs are wearing, and therefore the PC with
Sheltered Life gets a generic -1 roll penalty, but the others do not.
Later it becomes colder, and now everyone gets a -1 penalty, which the
Flaw multiplies into -2 for the Sheltered PC.

As for avoiding or at least minimizing these penalties, there's the
"Hard Living" Veteran trait, which will somehow reduce discomfort
penalties, reflecting the fact that the character has survived through
times of hardship, with poor (and intermittent) food, rough sleeping,
and so forth. The details are still a bit hazy, however.

(Then there's also Self-Control Points, for the Driven character
subtype. If you're extremely self-motivated, it is possible to ignore
minor distractions such as hunger, thirst or sleep deprivation.)


Pain is something I'll need rules for, in order to make Gifts such as
High Pain Threshold worthwhile, as well as various pain-supressing Body
Control and Ki abilities (these two can also help with discomfort -
especially Body Control, since the main inspiration for that are the
Indian faqirs), and the Medical Drugs skill for administering painkillers.

Hence it makes sense to also have a trait that makes a character *less*
able to resist pain (a multiplier to all pain penalties, probably), but
given that I expect combat to be quite common in typical Modern Action
RPG campaigns[1], I think it should be a (physical) Weakness rather than
a (psychological) Flaw.

In terms of character points, Weaknesses are supposed to be 2.5 times as
bad, since during character creation the player can choose to pay 8
points to have 1 fewer Flaw, or pay 20 points to not have a Weakness
(otherwise 1 Weakness is mandatory).


[1] My idea is that a campaign with a "normal" amount of combat will
feature an average of 1 major fight, 1 minor fight, plus a small number
of "violent incidents", per session.

A "high combat" campaign would be 2 major fights and probably 1-2
minors, plus incidents, while a "low combat" campaign would be 1 major
*or* 1 minor fight per session, plus 1-2 incidents. However, measured on
this scale, the average D&D3 campaign is probably off-the-chart at "very
high combat".
--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org
gleichman
2007-10-16 22:33:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Knutsen
Simply put, all characters (all teenaged and adult characters anyway -
there should be an explicit exemption for child characters) are sexual
creatures, and as such vulnerable to sexual temptations, and to PCs and
NPCs who use the Seduction subskill.
Typically in game design, the very existence of a Seduction skill already
implies that characters are vulnerable to it. From there many games allow
one to alter how vulnerable. In point of fact, this concept is found in most
games that have combat rules- few feel the need to make every character list
the flaw "hurt by sharp pointy things forced into their body". Frankly I
consider your concept here flawed from the gate.

Beyond that your concept is incorrect as presented. Instead of indicating
vulnerability (assuming Seduction has a base success rate equal to other
skills/methods), it indicates hightened vulnerablility. Seduction is more
effective than bribing, or threatening, or torture. Interesting view of the
world there but no matter what one thinks of it- it isn't what you presented
above.
Post by Peter Knutsen
But should Sexual Orientation be the only universal Flaw?
Those fond of the classics would also add to Lust the sins of Gluttony,
Greed, Sloth, Wrath, Envy and Pride.
Ben Finney
2007-10-16 23:43:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Knutsen
Flaws are psychological deficiencies; usually they represent
vulnerability towards some temptation, or greater weakness towards
something which is a temptation for everyone.
"Deficient" is a relative term; a "deficiency" is only understandable
in comparison to some norm that lacks the deficiency.
Post by Peter Knutsen
But in addition to these 3 player-chosen Flaws, all characters have
one universal Flaw, meaning one that all humans have, and which one
cannot get rid of [...]
If that's the case, what norm are you comparing against? If *everyone*
has it, it's not a deficiency; it's normal.
--
\ "When in doubt tell the truth. It will confound your enemies |
`\ and astound your friends." -- Mark Twain, _Following the |
_o__) Equator_ |
Ben Finney
Peter Knutsen
2007-10-17 00:26:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben Finney
Post by Peter Knutsen
Flaws are psychological deficiencies; usually they represent
vulnerability towards some temptation, or greater weakness towards
something which is a temptation for everyone.
"Deficient" is a relative term; a "deficiency" is only understandable
in comparison to some norm that lacks the deficiency.
Good point.

But the definition holds for non-universal Flaws.
Post by Ben Finney
Post by Peter Knutsen
But in addition to these 3 player-chosen Flaws, all characters have
one universal Flaw, meaning one that all humans have, and which one
cannot get rid of [...]
If that's the case, what norm are you comparing against? If *everyone*
has it, it's not a deficiency; it's normal.
I guess I am comparing it against the norm of an emotionless piece in a
board game. After all, that is what some players want to play. The
Modern Action RPG quickly makes it clear that such a desire will not be
met (although there are two character subtypes that will let you get
close), so that those players will look elsewhere to have their needs met.
--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org
Ben Finney
2007-10-17 00:51:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Knutsen
Post by Ben Finney
Post by Peter Knutsen
But in addition to these 3 player-chosen Flaws, all characters
have one universal Flaw, meaning one that all humans have, and
which one cannot get rid of [...]
If that's the case, what norm are you comparing against? If
*everyone* has it, it's not a deficiency; it's normal.
I guess I am comparing it against the norm of an emotionless piece
in a board game. After all, that is what some players want to
play.
That's unlikely to be what they have in mind as the norm, though.
Post by Peter Knutsen
The Modern Action RPG quickly makes it clear that such a desire will
not be met (although there are two character subtypes that will let
you get close), so that those players will look elsewhere to have
their needs met.
If it's your view that normal humans have a sexual drive that makes
them vulnerable compared to beings without it, I'd think this would be
as well served by making "Has no sexual impulses" as an advantage
against the norm of humanity.
--
\ "Consider the daffodil. And while you're doing that, I'll be |
`\ over here, looking through your stuff." -- Jack Handey |
_o__) |
Ben Finney
Russell Wallace
2007-10-25 04:14:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Knutsen
I guess I am comparing it against the norm of an emotionless piece in a
board game. After all, that is what some players want to play.
Not commenting on the specifics of the system in question, since I'm...
let's just say not in the target market; but I think it's worth
commenting on this:

Having spent a couple of decades in both roleplaying and AI research,
take it from me that emotionless board game pieces inhale beach balls
through drinking straws as far as raw effectiveness goes. Realistic
people who are aware of themselves and their situation, who care about
what's going on, about keeping themselves and their comrades alive, kick
seven colors out of an emotionless robot any day of the week. That's why
evolution - the ultimate cold optimizer - gave us emotions in the first
place.

The reason I don't want players playing emotionless pieces in a board
game isn't because they're uber-powerful. It's (at least in part)
because they're so stupid I'd very quickly get tired of applying script
immunity to stop them going insta-splat.
--
"Always look on the bright side of life."
To reply by email, replace no.spam with my last name.
Loading...