Getting Villain Strength "Just Right"

[Erol K. Bayburt]

In my games, I have a suprisingly difficult time setting the power
level of my NPC bad guys so that they are not either (a) so weak that
the regular authorities would have swept them up & disposed of them as
a matter of routine, nor (b) so strong as to be an unstoppable
juggernaut that the PC heroes can't do a thing against.

So I thought I'd ask the people I know are lurking in this apparently
dead group: How do you do it? How do you adjust villain strength so
that it's "just right" - neither too strong nor too weak?

To give a specific case, I've got a more-or-less standard medievaloid
setting with magic that much weaker than D&D-land but also more common
(spells are very roughly equivalent to D&D 0-level to 2nd level, but
wizards can cast dozens of them over the course of a day). In this
setting, I have an evil, human-sacrificing, vaguely Lovecraftian cult
as the main bad guys. What level should I set their power at so that
the cult will neither be wiped out nor logically be In Charge of the
various kingdoms?

What tricks can I use to make them a persistant, unstamp-outable
annoyance that occasionally flares into deadliness, without them
turning into an unstoppable lethal force that devours everything in
its path like a swarm of mutant flesh-eating cockroaches?

[Paul Colquhoun]

On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 22:31:02 -0500, Erol K Bayburt <***@comcast.net> wrote:
| In my games, I have a suprisingly difficult time setting the power
| level of my NPC bad guys so that they are not either (a) so weak that
| the regular authorities would have swept them up & disposed of them as
| a matter of routine, nor (b) so strong as to be an unstoppable
| juggernaut that the PC heroes can't do a thing against.
|
| So I thought I'd ask the people I know are lurking in this apparently
| dead group: How do you do it? How do you adjust villain strength so
| that it's "just right" - neither too strong nor too weak?
|
| To give a specific case, I've got a more-or-less standard medievaloid
| setting with magic that much weaker than D&D-land but also more common
| (spells are very roughly equivalent to D&D 0-level to 2nd level, but
| wizards can cast dozens of them over the course of a day). In this
| setting, I have an evil, human-sacrificing, vaguely Lovecraftian cult
| as the main bad guys. What level should I set their power at so that
| the cult will neither be wiped out nor logically be In Charge of the
| various kingdoms?
|
| What tricks can I use to make them a persistant, unstamp-outable
| annoyance that occasionally flares into deadliness, without them
| turning into an unstoppable lethal force that devours everything in
| its path like a swarm of mutant flesh-eating cockroaches?


Do they actually *want* to rule the world? Or do their beliefs run more
to "Gather the (small) group of chosen faithful, perform the rituals,
and await the coming of the Great Ones"?

That make them self-limiting, unless the Great Ones actually *do* show
up, then things get bad. That could make a good ending for the
campaign/setting, apocalypse for all.

Individual leaders might overstep the bounds occasionally, (the "flares"
that you wanted) and can be set at whatever strength/level is
appropriate for the characters at that time. Followers should be pretty
much cannon fodder for the most part, with just the leader & a few
others in the inner circle being more powerful.

They may also have access to unusual summoned creatures, etc, to spice
things up.

I'm assuming that your rules don't have anything like the 'CR' system
from D&D?

[Ed Chauvin IV]

On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 22:31:02 -0500, Erol K. Bayburt

Post by Erol K. Bayburt
In my games, I have a suprisingly difficult time setting the power
level of my NPC bad guys so that they are not either (a) so weak that
the regular authorities would have swept them up & disposed of them as
a matter of routine, nor (b) so strong as to be an unstoppable
juggernaut that the PC heroes can't do a thing against.
So I thought I'd ask the people I know are lurking in this apparently
dead group: How do you do it? How do you adjust villain strength so
that it's "just right" - neither too strong nor too weak?
To give a specific case, I've got a more-or-less standard medievaloid
setting with magic that much weaker than D&D-land but also more common
(spells are very roughly equivalent to D&D 0-level to 2nd level, but
wizards can cast dozens of them over the course of a day). In this
setting, I have an evil, human-sacrificing, vaguely Lovecraftian cult
as the main bad guys. What level should I set their power at so that
the cult will neither be wiped out nor logically be In Charge of the
various kingdoms?
What tricks can I use to make them a persistant, unstamp-outable
annoyance that occasionally flares into deadliness, without them
turning into an unstoppable lethal force that devours everything in
its path like a swarm of mutant flesh-eating cockroaches?

Model your organization on modern day gangs. Give them their own
rivals, both internal and external, and use the strife to keep them
from gaining too much of an upperhand. They may wield a good deal of
power, but make sure they can't simply bring it to bear effectively
enough to overthrow kingdoms. Make their rituals and trappings
unlawful, and keep them in hiding. Let them be spread across
continents, but not concentrated too greatly in any one place. Don't
forget to keep the individual members worried about others usurping
power from within.

These traits are a perfect fit (imo) for an evil, human-sacrificing,
vaguely Lovecraftian cult. Without a single unifying leader, such
organizations can easily be kept disorganized through internal
paranoia and the need for secrecy in general. When it's time for the
PCs to confront them, they should be able to muster an appropriately
adequate response, which can be sabotaged from within if necessary
when one of the cultists sees an opportunity to increase his personal
power if it seems the PCs are going to get steamrolled.

All this, of course, assumes that you're working from a fairly
non-simulationist stance and are willing to rig things somewhat in
favor of the game/story/PCs.





Ed Chauvin IV

[DougL]

Post by Ed Chauvin IV

Post by Erol K. Bayburt
What tricks can I use to make them a persistant, unstamp-outable
annoyance that occasionally flares into deadliness, without them
turning into an unstoppable lethal force that devours everything in
its path like a swarm of mutant flesh-eating cockroaches?

Model your organization on modern day gangs. Give them their own
rivals, both internal and external, and use the strife to keep them
from gaining too much of an upperhand. They may wield a good deal of
power, but make sure they can't simply bring it to bear effectively
enough to overthrow kingdoms. Make their rituals and trappings
unlawful, and keep them in hiding. Let them be spread across
continents, but not concentrated too greatly in any one place. Don't
forget to keep the individual members worried about others usurping
power from within.

Note that with roughly level 0-2 spells equivelent available to most
people their evil rituals can easily produce effects equivalent to most
level 3-4 spells (leave out the area effect attack spells) and they
still can't openly fight armies or take on kingdoms so they have an
incentive to hide.

Most people will probably be eager to help stomp them when they do
stick their heads up too high. But the government can't simply hunt
them down and kill them because their magic really is more effective
and they spend most of their time hiding what they really are.
Divination magic? Remember whose magic is stronger.

There can even be places secretly ruled by sacrificers, who are
unwilling to act openly so the King/Crown Prince/Evil Vizor/High Priest
and a few "loyal" followers sneak out every now and then to kidnap and
sacrifice some poor peasant girl. Then they arrest some other poor
sucker they don't like for the crime...

Then the girl's family/villiage/whatever asks the adventurers to look
into what happened to poor Betty since the authorities have clearly
arrested the wrong man.

Poof-Instant mid to high level adventure. Lower level adventures happen
places where the rulers want to kill the sacrificers but are unable to
do so. Heck, the evil ruler above might well hire the adventurers to
kill a rival group of sacrificers.

Post by Ed Chauvin IV
These traits are a perfect fit (imo) for an evil, human-sacrificing,
vaguely Lovecraftian cult. Without a single unifying leader, such
organizations can easily be kept disorganized through internal
paranoia and the need for secrecy in general. When it's time for the
PCs to confront them, they should be able to muster an appropriately
adequate response, which can be sabotaged from within if necessary
when one of the cultists sees an opportunity to increase his personal
power if it seems the PCs are going to get steamrolled.
All this, of course, assumes that you're working from a fairly
non-simulationist stance and are willing to rig things somewhat in
favor of the game/story/PCs.

Other than the convenience of someone betraying the boss at exactly the
point that the PC's need the help it works fine as a simulationist
setting too. The PCs need to be careful since if they are the good guys
the OpFor outmagics them, and they need to be careful if they are the
bad guys since proof or even strong evidence of that brings out the
pitchforks. But heavily simulationist games tend to have that sort of
risk.

Human sacrifice magic needs to either be the government or it will be
illegal (and with low power magic slightly better magic won't dominate
the setting). But if killing people gives power making it illegal won't
stop it completely. Hence the setting.

DougL

[Mary K. Kuhner]

Post by Erol K. Bayburt
What tricks can I use to make them a persistant, unstamp-outable
annoyance that occasionally flares into deadliness, without them
turning into an unstoppable lethal force that devours everything in
its path like a swarm of mutant flesh-eating cockroaches?

My husband has had good success by designing evil organizations
that are internally divided and waste much of their energy on
internal conflict. We had a great time in _Masks of Nyarlathotep_
with this: the PCs stole some information and papers from the
cult in London and then posed as investigative agents "from HQ"
when they were in Cairo. It worked brilliantly until they met
someone who actually *was* from HQ....

It also helps if the organization has a goal other than world
domination or destruction. For example, a profit-motive organization
won't want to devote more resources to squishing the PCs than they
are "worth". Just be careful about the moment when the PCs
show that they are actually a serious danger; there needs to be
something preventing an all-out response.

A cell structure with limited communication among cells can help
both in making the organization hard to kill, and in making it
not too dangerous. Cells may not respond to attacks on other
cells since doing so would endanger them. Conversely, stamping
out one cell will leave others still in the field.

I find that an evil organization with a public and a secret part
is more stable than an entirely secret one. An all-secret evil
organization, once the PCs find it, has an overwhelming need to
silence the PCs. A partly public one is more likely to do damage
control. (A completely public evil organization is going to be
hard to use as a villain without encountering whatever it is that
the society is already doing to contain it. Could work in a
scenario where society has somewhat broken down, but hard to make
work in a more organized setting.)

Mary Kuhner ***@eskimo.com

[Erol K. Bayburt]

On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 20:49:36 +0000 (UTC),

Post by Mary K. Kuhner
I find that an evil organization with a public and a secret part
is more stable than an entirely secret one. An all-secret evil
organization, once the PCs find it, has an overwhelming need to
silence the PCs. A partly public one is more likely to do damage
control.

Now that's something I hadn't thought of at all. I'm not sure I can
make it fit in my immediate campaign, but I'll keep it in mind for
future use.

Post by Mary K. Kuhner
(A completely public evil organization is going to be
hard to use as a villain without encountering whatever it is that
the society is already doing to contain it. Could work in a
scenario where society has somewhat broken down, but hard to make
work in a more organized setting.)

Or unless the evil organization basically is the government - e.g. the
classic Evil Empire. But in that case any PCs fighting it will be
underdog rebels who have to stay secret themselves. Unless the PCs are
REALLY powerful.

[Mary K. Kuhner]

Post by Erol K. Bayburt
On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 20:49:36 +0000 (UTC),

Post by Mary K. Kuhner
(A completely public evil organization is going to be
hard to use as a villain without encountering whatever it is that
the society is already doing to contain it. Could work in a
scenario where society has somewhat broken down, but hard to make
work in a more organized setting.)

Or unless the evil organization basically is the government - e.g. the
classic Evil Empire. But in that case any PCs fighting it will be
underdog rebels who have to stay secret themselves. Unless the PCs are
REALLY powerful.

PCs-vs-government has not worked well for us, except in areas where
the government is weak and disorganized. It's very hard to
have a government which is strong enough to maintain order, and not
strong enough to destroy the PCs. So the PCs really *must* avoid
attracting attention. But significant victories against your enemy
almost always attract attention. This leads to scenarios which the
PCs literally cannot afford to win. As a player I hate this.

Our _Paradisio_ campaign was dogged by problems stemming from the
fact that the enemy was a multinational corporation with near-
governmental power in some areas. The PCs couldn't afford to
hurt their enemy too much--we had "rewind and do something else"
situations three separate times during the campaign because what
the PCs had done would naturally set off a response that they
could not possibly handle. We sort of made it work, but the
experience was stressful and I don't think I'd recommend it.

I don't know how to run a scenario in which the PCs are powerful
enough to stand up to the government, and demonstrate that they
are. It seems to me that a government faced with enemies it can't
handle is an organization in acute crisis and will start doing all
sorts of weird crisis-oriented things. This makes my head hurt.
Most games that do it don't make any effort to present a realistic
government response, and I don't blame them because it's awfully
hard--particularly in a setting where such events are rare, like
the modern-day US.

Someone like Sea Wasp could probably be happy running this, but
to me it's a huge headache. I'm not really comfortable with high
power, and anything that can challenge a government is de facto
high power, no matter what the nominal ratings are.

Mary Kuhner ***@eskimo.com

[Erol K. Bayburt]

On Fri, 1 Sep 2006 00:12:27 +0000 (UTC),

Post by Mary K. Kuhner

Post by Erol K. Bayburt
On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 20:49:36 +0000 (UTC),

Post by Mary K. Kuhner
(A completely public evil organization is going to be
hard to use as a villain without encountering whatever it is that
the society is already doing to contain it. Could work in a
scenario where society has somewhat broken down, but hard to make
work in a more organized setting.)

Or unless the evil organization basically is the government - e.g. the
classic Evil Empire. But in that case any PCs fighting it will be
underdog rebels who have to stay secret themselves. Unless the PCs are
REALLY powerful.

PCs-vs-government has not worked well for us, except in areas where
the government is weak and disorganized. It's very hard to
have a government which is strong enough to maintain order, and not
strong enough to destroy the PCs. So the PCs really *must* avoid
attracting attention. But significant victories against your enemy
almost always attract attention. This leads to scenarios which the
PCs literally cannot afford to win. As a player I hate this.

If the PCs are the only rebels, then yes, they're SOL. I was thinking
more along the lines of a Star-Wars-ish "Rebellion against the Evil
Empire where the PCs are part of the rebellion. Although this can
easily shade into more of a straight war campaign.

Post by Mary K. Kuhner
I don't know how to run a scenario in which the PCs are powerful
enough to stand up to the government, and demonstrate that they
are. It seems to me that a government faced with enemies it can't
handle is an organization in acute crisis and will start doing all
sorts of weird crisis-oriented things. This makes my head hurt.
Most games that do it don't make any effort to present a realistic
government response, and I don't blame them because it's awfully
hard--particularly in a setting where such events are rare, like
the modern-day US.
Someone like Sea Wasp could probably be happy running this, but
to me it's a huge headache. I'm not really comfortable with high
power, and anything that can challenge a government is de facto
high power, no matter what the nominal ratings are.

I think it would be reasonable to do in a setting with weak pre-modern
sorts of governments. Although it would be high power if the PCs were
to try to pull it off from their personal ability rather than from
having scores or hundreds of followers to back them up.

For a PCs vs a nation-state, I was thinking in terms of characters
equivalent to comicbook superheroes - and not the low power ones
either.

[s***@sonic.net]

Post by Mary K. Kuhner

Post by Erol K. Bayburt
Or unless the evil organization basically is the government - e.g. the
classic Evil Empire. But in that case any PCs fighting it will be
underdog rebels who have to stay secret themselves. Unless the PCs are
REALLY powerful.

PCs-vs-government has not worked well for us, except in areas where
the government is weak and disorganized. It's very hard to
have a government which is strong enough to maintain order, and not
strong enough to destroy the PCs.

The thing about a "weak and disorganized" gov't is they can't muster
enough strength to quash the PC's before the PC's can get away.

So, you don't actually need "uber-potent" PC's, nor do you need the
PC's to avoid "impressive victories" for fear of gov't reaction --
you DO need the PC's to have either:
- some sort of "mole" or other information source, so that the PC's
always know what the gov't is going to do about them, BEFORE the
gov't implements that plan
OR
- some way to escape the gov't efforts, no matter what they are.

[mcv]

Post by s***@sonic.net

Post by Mary K. Kuhner

Post by Erol K. Bayburt
Or unless the evil organization basically is the government - e.g. the
classic Evil Empire. But in that case any PCs fighting it will be
underdog rebels who have to stay secret themselves. Unless the PCs are
REALLY powerful.

PCs-vs-government has not worked well for us, except in areas where
the government is weak and disorganized. It's very hard to
have a government which is strong enough to maintain order, and not
strong enough to destroy the PCs.

The thing about a "weak and disorganized" gov't is they can't muster
enough strength to quash the PC's before the PC's can get away.
So, you don't actually need "uber-potent" PC's, nor do you need the
PC's to avoid "impressive victories" for fear of gov't reaction --
- some sort of "mole" or other information source, so that the PC's
always know what the gov't is going to do about them, BEFORE the
gov't implements that plan
OR
- some way to escape the gov't efforts, no matter what they are.

Think Robin Hood. The Sheriff of Nottingham is in charge, and powerful
enough to oppress ordinary citizens, but Robin and his gang can always
withdraw to Sherwood Forest.


mcv.

[Simon Smith]

In message <***@4ax.com>
Erol K. Bayburt <***@comcast.net> wrote:
<snip>

Post by Erol K. Bayburt
So I thought I'd ask the people I know are lurking in this apparently
dead group: How do you do it? How do you adjust villain strength so
that it's "just right" - neither too strong nor too weak?

<snip>

I tend to handle problems like this by having thought about the range of
power levels throughout the setting ahead of time; say, one second level
character for every five first levels, one third level character for every
five second levels, and so on. In addition I take account of the fact that
persistent organisations like the one you propose must by definition be at
roughly an equilibrium level. If they're weak, they either keep out of
trouble, and are growing (or shrinking) slowly, or they are good at
recruiting low-level goons to make good their losses. If they are powerful,
they will usually start to get caught up in the /political/ checks and
balances of the game setting, which are largely level-independent. Nobody in
my games gets something for nothing, not even the NPCs, so I find I can
usually define whatever power level I see fit for a group, and either write
in (or retrofit) the checks and balances as needed. As I generally find it
unbelievable for any one organisation to have a monopoly on any one aspect
of power, I can always assume there's something else out in the game world
that will limit the amount of power escalation possible.

But my starting point would be to choose the power level of the group, then
/define/ them to be more or less at equilibrium, and then decide or deduce
what factors must be keeping them there. I don't just consider what keeps
them strong, but also what keeps them weak. This is perhaps a rather
different perspective from what you seem to be using - all I can say is that
my way works well for me.

[Erol K. Bayburt]

I thank everyone for their advice. It must be good advice because it
tracks with what I've already figured out for myself :)

Most of the advice involved secrecy, but secrecy raises a few problems
of its own.

1 Characters who depend on secrecy (either bad guy cultists, or good
guy underdog rebels vs a powerful Evil Overlord) tend to be brittle.
What happens when the secrecy is breached? Is it "game over"? This can
work if the PCs are the hunters, but then they will be pushed into
being specialized investigators. Once the bad guys are unmasked, the
PCs can just call in NPC muscle to make the bust.

But for NPCs with more staying power, or for PCs, how can losing
secrecy be made a defeat short of a total loss?

2. If the bad guys are deeply hidden, and the PCs are not specialized
investigators, then the PCs may never find the bad guys. I'd prefer a
situation where there are suspicions, evidence, and the occasional
false accusation floating around, but no *proof* of the bad guys
villainy. For this, though, I need a reason why the NPCs - whether
Lords with Swords or Peasants with Pitchforks - hold back if there
isn't proof, while the PCs are willing to plunge in on mere suspicion.

What I need for this, I think, are cultists that are secret enough to
hide the proof of their activities but not so secret as to require
elite investigator-specialists to track them down. The cultists also
need to be strong enough to deter the authorities and the peasant mobs
from attacking them without absolute proof, but no so strong that the
PC-heroes can't take them on and win.

So what kind of powers can I give my cultists (or bad guys in general)
that will deter the NPC mobs of Lords with Swords or Peasants with
Pitchforks, but don't work very well against elite strike teams (e.g
the PCs)?

[Ed Chauvin IV]

On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 17:10:33 -0500, Erol K. Bayburt

Post by Erol K. Bayburt
What I need for this, I think, are cultists that are secret enough to
hide the proof of their activities but not so secret as to require
elite investigator-specialists to track them down. The cultists also
need to be strong enough to deter the authorities and the peasant mobs
from attacking them without absolute proof, but no so strong that the
PC-heroes can't take them on and win.

Well, that's easy really. The secrecy issue is handled quite nicely
by making the evidence the cultists leave behind something that's so
unbelievable that it's nearly impossible to convince the authorities
to take action. Watch a couple episodes of Kolchak (the original
series, haven't seen any of the new ones) for inspiration here.

As far as the strength issue, make them public figures with
non-cultist allies. Palace guards who don't realize the crown prince
is an evil cultist will deter the peasant mobs quite nicely. Keeping
other court members away will involve more politics, but essentially
works the same way. The duke isn't going to risk his duchy (and his
life even) taking on the crown prince unless he knows he's going to
have allies that side with him, and that's going to take more than
just a pendant with an evil inscription.



Ed Chauvin IV

[DougL]

Post by Erol K. Bayburt
I thank everyone for their advice. It must be good advice because it
tracks with what I've already figured out for myself :)
Most of the advice involved secrecy, but secrecy raises a few problems
of its own.
1 Characters who depend on secrecy (either bad guy cultists, or good
guy underdog rebels vs a powerful Evil Overlord) tend to be brittle.
What happens when the secrecy is breached? Is it "game over"? This can
work if the PCs are the hunters, but then they will be pushed into
being specialized investigators. Once the bad guys are unmasked, the
PCs can just call in NPC muscle to make the bust.

Ultimately if you loose secrecy you need to run. Since your proposed
villians have (presumably) superior magic they can probably switch
bases and live.

Thus if you find them you need to kill them NOW. Go off to get muscle
and there'll be nothing there when you get back.

PCs have to be both able to find the enemy and fight themselves.
Alternately if PCs are being hunted they need to be able to beat off
the immediate persuit and disengage and run away.

Post by Erol K. Bayburt
But for NPCs with more staying power, or for PCs, how can losing
secrecy be made a defeat short of a total loss?

Run away! If one side needs secrecy to live then that side losses it's
base whenever someone finds them.

Post by Erol K. Bayburt
2. If the bad guys are deeply hidden, and the PCs are not specialized
investigators, then the PCs may never find the bad guys. I'd prefer a
situation where there are suspicions, evidence, and the occasional
false accusation floating around, but no *proof* of the bad guys
villainy. For this, though, I need a reason why the NPCs - whether
Lords with Swords or Peasants with Pitchforks - hold back if there
isn't proof, while the PCs are willing to plunge in on mere suspicion.

Alternately some people are blessed by Fate/the Gods/random Chance with
an unusual ability to sense members of the cult. You get the "reek of
wrongness" when in the area of cultists or cult sites.

Advertise this and your life-expectancy drops to minutes. And most
people won't believe you anyway since charlatans and even cultists
occasionally claim similar powers and you are a stranger while the
accused are locals. So you are on your own....

Investigations are limited to figuring out WHICH of the people and
places you always feel oddly about are actually in the cult, and which
ones have mearely been brushed by it's foul life steeling magics....

Post by Erol K. Bayburt
What I need for this, I think, are cultists that are secret enough to
hide the proof of their activities but not so secret as to require
elite investigator-specialists to track them down. The cultists also
need to be strong enough to deter the authorities and the peasant mobs
from attacking them without absolute proof, but no so strong that the
PC-heroes can't take them on and win.

See above. Why should authorities and peasant mobs believe the PCs
accusations? Why should the cultists hang arround while the PCs arrange
proof or convince people?

Post by Erol K. Bayburt
So what kind of powers can I give my cultists (or bad guys in general)
that will deter the NPC mobs of Lords with Swords or Peasants with
Pitchforks, but don't work very well against elite strike teams (e.g
the PCs)?

The power of NPC mobs who don't believe random strangers who claim that
"good old Fred" is actually a minion of EVIL!

Alternately the power to follow the evil overlord list and arrange for:
"I will see to it that plucky young lads/lasses in strange clothes and
with the accent of an outlander shall REGULARLY climb some monument in
the main square of my capital and denounce me, claim to know the secret
of my power, rally the masses to rebellion, etc. That way, the citizens
will be jaded in case the real thing ever comes along."

If witchsmellers have a power that actually works, but there are 200
fakes for every real witchsmeller and no reliable way to test claimed
witchsmellers, and if the PCs are all witchsmellers as a natural
tallent or side effect of an odd spell or something, then....

DougL

[mcv]

Post by Erol K. Bayburt
Most of the advice involved secrecy, but secrecy raises a few problems
of its own.
1 Characters who depend on secrecy (either bad guy cultists, or good
guy underdog rebels vs a powerful Evil Overlord) tend to be brittle.
What happens when the secrecy is breached? Is it "game over"?

If they're cultists, it's probably only one cell, and there are other
secret cells elsewhere. Some cultists get away, not every was present
when the raid occurred, that sort of stuff.

Post by Erol K. Bayburt
This can
work if the PCs are the hunters, but then they will be pushed into
being specialized investigators. Once the bad guys are unmasked, the
PCs can just call in NPC muscle to make the bust.

But that gives the cultists time to flee. Better move in quick!

Post by Erol K. Bayburt
But for NPCs with more staying power, or for PCs, how can losing
secrecy be made a defeat short of a total loss?

Spread out. Only some of the bad guys are caught, their current
nafarious plans thwarted, but they'll be back...

Post by Erol K. Bayburt
2. If the bad guys are deeply hidden, and the PCs are not specialized
investigators, then the PCs may never find the bad guys. I'd prefer a
situation where there are suspicions, evidence, and the occasional
false accusation floating around, but no *proof* of the bad guys
villainy. For this, though, I need a reason why the NPCs - whether
Lords with Swords or Peasants with Pitchforks - hold back if there
isn't proof, while the PCs are willing to plunge in on mere suspicion.

Superstition. Peasants may think the place is cursed, and they won't
go near it. Or maybe the bad guys are important. Maybe it's the local
Lord himself. Or the local peasants. Or a powerful merchant. And he's
good at keeping a secret, or ruthless at keeping it a secret. Maybe
the Powers That Be are corrupt and bought, or they don't believe that
an upstanding citizen like that cou8ld be evil.

Post by Erol K. Bayburt
What I need for this, I think, are cultists that are secret enough to
hide the proof of their activities but not so secret as to require
elite investigator-specialists to track them down. The cultists also
need to be strong enough to deter the authorities and the peasant mobs
from attacking them without absolute proof, but no so strong that the
PC-heroes can't take them on and win.

Put the cultists in an ancient monastery. People far away don't know what
goes on there, people nearby do, but they think it's supposed to be like
that. They think the cultists are part of the Church, so they it must be
okay. Or maybe it isn't okay, but they have the backing of the Church
anyway, or so the peasants believe.

Or the cultists are very careful not to let anyone know about their
nefarious deeds, except for the occasional and unfortunate passerby,
which ofcourse happens to be a PC or a friend of the PCs. The
authorities think it was a standard mugging, but the PCs know better.

Post by Erol K. Bayburt
So what kind of powers can I give my cultists (or bad guys in general)
that will deter the NPC mobs of Lords with Swords or Peasants with
Pitchforks, but don't work very well against elite strike teams (e.g
the PCs)?

Political power. That always works best against NPCs, and not at all
against PCs.


mcv.