Changing from D&D v2 to v3.5: a character's perspective.

[Beowulf Bolt]

Ok. This is going to require some explanation.

First and foremost, I am *not* running D&D. I am running an Amber
campaign.

However, in said campaign there is a Shadow where one of the
characters has been hanging out a lot, which he defined to be a
'standard fantasy world' with thieves, paladins, etc. I use mnemonic
systems to help keep track of Shadows to make it easier to fill in
details, etc, when needed and for this world, I (in conjunction with the
player) started using the mnemonic that this world worked according to
D&D v2 laws (that being the version of D&D with which I am most
familiar).

Flash forward a year into the campaign, and an event has been
triggered that will cause a subtle change in the Laws governing the
Shadow. Behind the scenes, I felt an appropriate metaphor would be that
the world rules changed from v2 to v3.5.

My problem is that I have very limited experience with v3 or v3.5, all
of which as a player, and all dating back a couple of years.

Thus my question, in order to roleplay this out. What would the
*characters* in said world have noticed as a consequence of said change?
This change would *not* have been transparent to the inhabitants of the
world. They would be aware that things do not quite work in the manner
in which they used to.

Because I am not actually running D&D, I don't need to get right down
into the details that narrowly, but am interested more in the larger
picture. F'rinstance, I recall that clerical magic is now organized
into domains (but does that preclude characters from casting outside
their domain? I don't recall.) Numerous spells would no longer
function the way they had before. The characters in that world would
just be learning about such things as feats (they wouldn't have been
'refitted' to possess them), and may well have lost abilities they once
had. The class of sorcerers would just be starting to be known. Fight
tactics would be undergoing a major change.

What else would the characters in the world notice?

If it helps to focus the issue, the character whose Shadow this is has
a lot of contacts with a powerful LG martial order, who have themselves
been conferring on the issue with high-level mages, clerics, etc. The
type of info I'm looking for should be slanted towards the type of
things this group would primarily notice or be able to determine via
divinations.

(F'rexample, they are quite aware that the player in question was
ultimately responsible for the change, which will have... interesting...
repercussions on his interactions there.)

Thanks in advance for your assistance,

Biff

[Ophidian]

Post by Beowulf Bolt
Thus my question, in order to roleplay this out. What would the
*characters* in said world have noticed as a consequence of said change?

One big change is the emergence of Sorcerors.
The Forgotten Realms setting, for example, actually retconned some
of its Wizards into always having been Sorcerors.
In your version, perhaps some Wizards wake up realizing they are
now Sorcerors?

Post by Beowulf Bolt
Because I am not actually running D&D, I don't need to get right down
into the details that narrowly, but am interested more in the larger
picture. F'rinstance, I recall that clerical magic is now organized
into domains (but does that preclude characters from casting outside
their domain? I don't recall.)

No, it doesn't, although Domains often have spells not
otherwise accessible to Clerics.

Post by Beowulf Bolt
The characters in that world would
just be learning about such things as feats (they wouldn't have been
'refitted' to possess them),

Why not?
They'd remember not having them, but under the laws they have them.

[Beowulf Bolt]

Post by Ophidian

Post by Beowulf Bolt
The characters in that world would
just be learning about such things as feats (they wouldn't have been
'refitted' to possess them),

Why not?
They'd remember not having them, but under the laws they have them.

I was under the impression that feats had to be learned and/or taught.

Certainly there was nothing in 2nd Ed to match many of the feats
(while others would have been considered part of the common knowledge of
the class, like certain crafting feats iirc). I could see the latter
type being learned transparently, but was under the impression that the
others would need to be learned (the characters would have the 'slots'
to do so but wouldn't wake up on the morning after the change knowing
how to do a Great Cleave, f'rinstance).

I haven't set my mind on this however. Is it your opinion that these
would 'retroactively' have been gained, much like attacks of opportunity
all of a sudden count for a lot more?

Thanks,
Biff

[Ophidian]

Post by Beowulf Bolt

Post by Ophidian

Post by Beowulf Bolt
The characters in that world would
just be learning about such things as feats (they wouldn't have been
'refitted' to possess them),

Why not?
They'd remember not having them, but under the laws they have them.

I was under the impression that feats had to be learned and/or taught.

Yes, but if you are already a 9th level Elven Wizard you have 4 feats.
I'd say that before the "event" the 9th level Wizard had no feats,
but after he has 4. And maybe doesn't recall learning them, recalls
he didn't have them before, but now knows he has them and how to
use them.

Post by Beowulf Bolt
Certainly there was nothing in 2nd Ed to match many of the feats
(while others would have been considered part of the common knowledge of
the class, like certain crafting feats iirc). I could see the latter
type being learned transparently, but was under the impression that the
others would need to be learned (the characters would have the 'slots'
to do so but wouldn't wake up on the morning after the change knowing
how to do a Great Cleave, f'rinstance).

You could play it that way, sure.

[Mad Hamish]

Post by Beowulf Bolt

Post by Ophidian

Post by Beowulf Bolt
The characters in that world would
just be learning about such things as feats (they wouldn't have been
'refitted' to possess them),

Why not?
They'd remember not having them, but under the laws they have them.

I was under the impression that feats had to be learned and/or taught.

There is no book requirement for any training when you advance levels
in 3rd ed.

[Justisaur]

Post by Beowulf Bolt
Ok. This is going to require some explanation.
First and foremost, I am *not* running D&D. I am running an Amber
campaign.
However, in said campaign there is a Shadow where one of the
characters has been hanging out a lot, which he defined to be a
'standard fantasy world' with thieves, paladins, etc. I use mnemonic
systems to help keep track of Shadows to make it easier to fill in
details, etc, when needed and for this world, I (in conjunction with the
player) started using the mnemonic that this world worked according to
D&D v2 laws (that being the version of D&D with which I am most
familiar).
Flash forward a year into the campaign, and an event has been
triggered that will cause a subtle change in the Laws governing the
Shadow. Behind the scenes, I felt an appropriate metaphor would be that
the world rules changed from v2 to v3.5.
My problem is that I have very limited experience with v3 or v3.5, all
of which as a player, and all dating back a couple of years.
Thus my question, in order to roleplay this out. What would the
*characters* in said world have noticed as a consequence of said change?
This change would *not* have been transparent to the inhabitants of the
world. They would be aware that things do not quite work in the manner
in which they used to.
Because I am not actually running D&D, I don't need to get right down
into the details that narrowly, but am interested more in the larger
picture. F'rinstance, I recall that clerical magic is now organized
into domains (but does that preclude characters from casting outside
their domain? I don't recall.) Numerous spells would no longer
function the way they had before. The characters in that world would
just be learning about such things as feats (they wouldn't have been
'refitted' to possess them), and may well have lost abilities they once
had. The class of sorcerers would just be starting to be known. Fight
tactics would be undergoing a major change.
What else would the characters in the world notice?

The big things:

Monsters have gotten a heck of a lot tougher in general, Dragons doubly
so. Monsters that only a certain type of metal / magic can only damage
can now be damaged by a masive enough blow. Even a typical housecat
can now kill a commoner in one round.

Kobolds go from being doglike to small lizard/dragon types (and a good
place to introduce sorcerers).

Zombies & Skeletons are now evil and radiate such when detected (3.5,
3.0 they were still neutral).

Devils and Demons are Devils and Demons once again.

Most 'spell-like abilities' are now sorcerous - so all the monsters
that could naturally cast spells do it as sorcerers now.

Races are not restricted to certain classes, any race can be anything,
they also aren't limited to certain levels if not human (they just
might not be very good at it). In other words There's a possibility
for a 20th level Dwarven Wizard (which I hear isn't a bad choice
either). The elves might be a bit pissed when they find being a
fighter/wizard sucks really bad now, as a 9th level fighter/wizard
would convert to about a Fighter 5/Wizard 5, so those fighter wizard
elves aren't going to fight anywhere near as well, or cast spells as
well (although they might throw in some levels of eldrich knight to
un-suck the combination a little).

Barbarians and Monks are brought back as core classes (Barbarians were
not core in 1e, but they were available in UA), Bards and Sorcerers are
new core classes.

Priests in 2e were restricted to spheres of spells, armor, weapons,
and even the ability to turn undead based on thier gods. In 3e they
are now called Clerics again, and they now have a standard list of
spells PLUSS bonus spells from 2 domains based on thier god, can use
any armor, and know how to use all simple weapons including piercing
and slashing weapons like crossbows and daggers, they are not
restricted in what weapons they use they just don't default to knowing
how to use them all, a cleric learning how to wield a two handed sword,
or a longbow isn't unheard of. All clerics can turn undead now (unless
evil, in which case they rebuke or command), Priests in 2e were a weak
class, whereas in 3e Clerics are probably the strongest.

Speaking of armor and spellcasting, Wizards can cast spells in armor as
well now, they just have a failure chance. Wearing a mithril chain
shirt at higher levels isn't unheard of, and even wearing leather at
low isn't uncommon. Wizards can also learn to use heavier weapons
than they are normally restricted to as well, although few do in
practice.

Almost all spells have minor differences, most are far shorter in
duration, while some don't exist any more, and some new ones have come
about. That will be really noticeable to the spellcasters.

Creating magic items is now much easier, and makes sense. Wizards used
to have to be I think 6th level to create even scrolls, now they start
at 1st knowing how to create scrolls.

The lack of facing might be noticeable in combat, combatants can now
look over thier shoulder constantly, and spin on a dime.

And lots of other things, but I think that's plenty to start with.

- Justisaur

[Peter Knutsen (usenet)]

Justisaur wrote:
[...]

Post by Justisaur
Priests in 2e were restricted to spheres of spells, armor, weapons,
and even the ability to turn undead based on thier gods. In 3e they
are now called Clerics again, and they now have a standard list of
spells PLUSS bonus spells from 2 domains based on thier god, can use

The standard list is long, too.

Post by Justisaur
any armor, and know how to use all simple weapons including piercing

[...]

Post by Justisaur
Creating magic items is now much easier, and makes sense. Wizards used
to have to be I think 6th level to create even scrolls, now they start
at 1st knowing how to create scrolls.

Scrolls and potions will be very common. All Wizards will create scrolls
in some of their spare time. Many spellcasters will make potions or scrolls.

Permanent usage magic items are also more common. In AD&D, it was
exceedingly up to the GM whether the party would ever find any magic
items. In D&D3, the rule books give a pretty solid definition of what
the players should expect. I wouldn't be surprised if stark GM
stinginess would cause players to mutiny the campaign.

At some character level (I don't know which, but others can tell you)
character routinely own a +1 weapon, a +1 armour (and a +1 shield if
relevant), and a few other magic items (ones that give a small bonus to
class-relevant attributes are common, e.g. +2 DEX for Rogues or +2 CHA
for Bards). A few levels later, owning many small items is common, and a
few levels later some of those items will have a bigger plus (usually
this is through magically upgrading the item, rather than selling it and
buying one with a bigger plus).

The dynamic is very much that characters go for many small plusses
rather than a few big ones, whenever possible. Especially when it comes
to armour, it's cheaper to get +1 AC (yes, higher AC is better now) from
a suit of armour and another +1 AC from a shield and a third +1 AC from
some kind of ring, than it is to get +3 AC from one item. Much cheaper.

Exceptions exist, of course. For weapons, you still want the biggest
plus possible (except if you feel that you should divide your plus funds
between a melee weapon and a ranged weapon).

Weapons and suits of armour (and shields) can also have magical
properites other than plusses now. Okay, they could in AD&D too, but
it's much more elaborate now. Weapons can have additional Fire or Frost
or Electricity damage (similar to in the Angband roguelike computer
games), or be Banes versus defined target categories (bonus damage vs
Undead, Weres, Animals, Humans or Dragons...). Armour and shields can
also have special properties.

Magic items are, however, still almost exclusively
combat/adventuring/dungeoncrawling-relevant. Just like in AD&D.


Healing magic, in savvy parties, now primarily come from Wands of Cure
Light Wound spells. These are very cheap, and a party that takes its
equipment seriously will carry many such Wands (ideally even one at 1st
level). Cure spells are only cast in emergencies.

Oh, and the whole Sponaneous Casting thing for Clerics is a big deal. I
presume Beowulf knows about how that works. Druids can Spont too, but
it's not such a big deal.


Prestige Classes abound, allowing characters to focus on particular
abilities and develop in certain directions.

All the talk about how Prestige Classes are used to reflect
organizational membership is bollocks (at best - at worst, it is
rhetoric that GMs utilize to hold their players down). Prestige Classes
reflect the choice of focusing on becoming good at one or two specific
abilities at the expense of other abilities. E.g. a Wizard (Mage) who
wants to become really good at Fire Magic, or really good at Animating
Dead. They can therefore achieve that which (Wizard (Mage)) School
Specialization cannot.

Post by Justisaur
The lack of facing might be noticeable in combat, combatants can now
look over thier shoulder constantly, and spin on a dime.

Flanking exists to counter this somewhat, though.

Post by Justisaur
And lots of other things, but I think that's plenty to start with.

[Mary K. Kuhner]

I think there would be subtle but pervasive societal changes because
the meaning of the stats and their assortment with classes has
changed. In particular, Wisdom doubling as Perception means that
priests are now, as a group, unusually perceptive people--not just
good judges of moral issues, but good at spotting traps, finding
hidden objects, detecting forgeries and the like. I think this would
affect peoples' attitudes toward the priesthood. Similarly, highly
charismatic people are not only good leaders, they are good with
some kinds of magic. The stereotype of the lovely witch makes more
sense than it used to.

Mary Kuhner ***@eskimo.com

[Keith Davies]

Post by Justisaur
Most 'spell-like abilities' are now sorcerous - so all the monsters
that could naturally cast spells do it as sorcerers now.

Spell-like abilities are still spell-like abilities... 'as a sorcerer'
is used to indicate how the spell-like abilities actually *work*.
They are not treated like, nor considered to be, sorcerers.

Post by Justisaur
Barbarians and Monks are brought back as core classes (Barbarians were
not core in 1e, but they were available in UA), Bards and Sorcerers are
new core classes.

Bard was a subclass of Rogue in 2e.

Post by Justisaur
Priests in 2e were restricted to spheres of spells, armor, weapons,
and even the ability to turn undead based on thier gods. In 3e they
are now called Clerics again, and they now have a standard list of
spells PLUSS bonus spells from 2 domains based on thier god, can use
any armor, and know how to use all simple weapons including piercing
and slashing weapons like crossbows and daggers, they are not
restricted in what weapons they use they just don't default to
knowing how to use them all, a cleric learning how to wield a two
handed sword, or a longbow isn't unheard of. All clerics can turn
undead now (unless evil, in which case they rebuke or command),
Priests in 2e were a weak class, whereas in 3e Clerics are probably
the strongest.

Cleric was probably the strongest class overall in 2e -- Priests
somewhat deliberately toned that down. Clerics are certainly the most
powerful overall in 3e.

Post by Justisaur
Creating magic items is now much easier, and makes sense. Wizards
used to have to be I think 6th level to create even scrolls, now
they start at 1st knowing how to create scrolls.

This helps explain why there are so many magic items out there. The
number of items you'd find in a 1e or 2e campaign *never* made sense
to me (they're hard to make, unreliable to make, and the people who
can make them are few and far between... and you find them by the
bucket full). *Now* having potions of healing (potions of cure light
wounds, now) readily available *makes sense*.

Post by Justisaur
The lack of facing might be noticeable in combat, combatants can now
look over thier shoulder constantly, and spin on a dime.

Way simpler to adjudicate now, though. If you've got a person on each
side of you, you've got a problem (they get a flanking bonus).


Keith

[Justisaur]

Post by Keith Davies

Post by Justisaur
Most 'spell-like abilities' are now sorcerous - so all the monsters
that could naturally cast spells do it as sorcerers now.

Spell-like abilities are still spell-like abilities... 'as a sorcerer'
is used to indicate how the spell-like abilities actually *work*.
They are not treated like, nor considered to be, sorcerers.

Except they have a sorcerer caster level, which stacks should they
become sorcerers.

They are almost, but not quite sorcerers.

- Justisaur

[DougL]

Post by Justisaur

Post by Keith Davies

Post by Justisaur
Most 'spell-like abilities' are now sorcerous - so all the monsters
that could naturally cast spells do it as sorcerers now.

Spell-like abilities are still spell-like abilities... 'as a sorcerer'
is used to indicate how the spell-like abilities actually *work*.
They are not treated like, nor considered to be, sorcerers.

Except they have a sorcerer caster level, which stacks should they
become sorcerers.

What in the world makes you think the Caster Level for spell like
abilities stacks with Sorcerer levels?

A Dragon's ACTUAL ability to cast sorcerer spells actually stacks with
sorcerer levels, ditto for other monsters with spells. But spell-likes?

DougL

[Justisaur]

Post by DougL

Post by Justisaur

Post by Keith Davies

Post by Justisaur
Most 'spell-like abilities' are now sorcerous - so all the monsters
that could naturally cast spells do it as sorcerers now.

Spell-like abilities are still spell-like abilities... 'as a sorcerer'
is used to indicate how the spell-like abilities actually *work*.
They are not treated like, nor considered to be, sorcerers.

Except they have a sorcerer caster level, which stacks should they
become sorcerers.

What in the world makes you think the Caster Level for spell like
abilities stacks with Sorcerer levels?

Savage Species.

- Justisaur

[Pythor]

Justisaur wrote:
<SNIP>

Post by Justisaur
The lack of facing might be noticeable in combat, combatants can now
look over thier shoulder constantly, and spin on a dime.
And lots of other things, but I think that's plenty to start with.
- Justisaur

Maybe I'm remembering poorly, but wasn't 2E to 3E when the combat rouns
went from one minute to 6 seconds? Fights just got a lot faster and
more dangerous.

[Justisaur]

Post by Pythor
Maybe I'm remembering poorly, but wasn't 2E to 3E when the combat rouns
went from one minute to 6 seconds? Fights just got a lot faster and
more dangerous.

No that changed 1 to 2e.

- Justisaur

[a***@cox.net]

Pythor wrote:
<snip>

Maybe I'm remembering poorly, but wasn't 2E to 3E when the combat rounds
went from one minute to 6 seconds? Fights just got a lot faster and
more dangerous.

The 2E core rules had a one minute combat round. From the PH2:

"Round - in combat, a segment of time approximately 1 minute long,
during which a character can accomplish one basic action.

The optional 2E Player's Option: Combat & Tactics book introduced a 12
second combat round.


Arivne

[Beowulf Bolt]

I just wanted to say thanks to all who responded to this thread.
You've given me a solid basis from which to work.

Much appreciated,
Biff

[DougL]

Post by Justisaur
The elves might be a bit pissed when they find being a
fighter/wizard sucks really bad now, as a 9th level fighter/wizard
would convert to about a Fighter 5/Wizard 5, so those fighter wizard
elves aren't going to fight anywhere near as well, or cast spells as
well (although they might throw in some levels of eldrich knight to
un-suck the combination a little).

If not using prestige classes a 9th level Ftr/Wiz should convert to a
Ftr2/Wiz8 or so, NOT a Ftr5/Wiz5. At Ftr2/Wiz8 has BAB+6/+1, as good as
a Ftr6, He has only one less fighter or general feat than a Ftr6, he
has more HP than a Ftr 6. He can fight fairly well, and he casts as a
level 8 Wizard.

Eldrich Knight helps some, but it's not much better than the build
above. Ftr1/Wiz5/EK4 or Ftr1/Wiz6/EK3 has BAB +7/+2, feats as before,
and casts at level 8, the prestige class gives a whole +1 BAB and maybe
a couple of HP to the build. It helps more over time of course. But
even with EK Ftr/Wiz still basically sucks if you're mostly a caster.

DougL

[Peter Knutsen (usenet)]

Post by Beowulf Bolt
Ok. This is going to require some explanation.
First and foremost, I am *not* running D&D. I am running an Amber
campaign.
However, in said campaign there is a Shadow where one of the
characters has been hanging out a lot, which he defined to be a
'standard fantasy world' with thieves, paladins, etc. I use mnemonic
systems to help keep track of Shadows to make it easier to fill in
details, etc, when needed and for this world, I (in conjunction with the
player) started using the mnemonic that this world worked according to
D&D v2 laws (that being the version of D&D with which I am most
familiar).
Flash forward a year into the campaign, and an event has been
triggered that will cause a subtle change in the Laws governing the
Shadow. Behind the scenes, I felt an appropriate metaphor would be that
the world rules changed from v2 to v3.5.
My problem is that I have very limited experience with v3 or v3.5, all
of which as a player, and all dating back a couple of years.
Thus my question, in order to roleplay this out. What would the
*characters* in said world have noticed as a consequence of said change?

I'm afraid you won't get any help with this, since the kind of people
who use the D&D family of rules systems tend to seriously not have any
interest in how the world looks from the character's perspective.

But for starters, you should think hard about what an AD&D 2E world
looks like from a character's perspective:

Do characters notice classes?

Do characters notice levels?

D&D land is extremely categorized and discrete, compared to most other
systems and in particular I cannot imagine that people would not notice
that characters, all characters, come in levels, with all the
consequences associated with that, including the fact that
capabilitistic advancement occurs in extremely abrupt jumps and fits,
rather than with any smoothness.

Spells, in particular, are very stark, because you go from no capability
of casting a given spell to full (100%) capability. Under almost any
circumstances, you can cast a spell with absolute certainty of success,
whereas you could not cast it at all one second late.

Magic is also somehow generalized. People do not study specific magics
such as fire magic or illusion magic, instead they inavoidably (as in
there must be a metaphysical law!) study magic in a general way so that
they are capable of learning a wide variety of spells, the only
exception being that one or a very few types of magic are prohibited to
some characters (due to being opposed to specialist schools).

That's not AD&D vs D&D3, but rather general facts about D&D-land.

Post by Beowulf Bolt
This change would *not* have been transparent to the inhabitants of the
world. They would be aware that things do not quite work in the manner
in which they used to.

Amusingly, some fiction was actually written about the Forgotten Realm's
transition from 1E to 2E rules (which was non-transparent to at least a
subste of the population). I remember a Moonshae trilogy by Douglas
Niles that I kinda liked as a kid. Re-reading it today might not
actually cause you any acute physical pain.

Post by Beowulf Bolt
Because I am not actually running D&D, I don't need to get right down
into the details that narrowly, but am interested more in the larger
picture. F'rinstance, I recall that clerical magic is now organized
into domains (but does that preclude characters from casting outside
their domain? I don't recall.) Numerous spells would no longer

Nope. Domains work badly the same way Wizardly (formerly Mage) School
Specialization does, in that your choice of Domain (or Specialization)
fails to achieve its goal, which is to make your character fel like he's
a specialist, i.e. particularly good at something.

Clerics get to chose 2 Domains, from a list proscribed by their chosen
god (Clerics with no chosen god can chose any 2 Domains).

Each Domain contains 1 spell per level, and also gives a special Domain
power. with some Domains, the Domain spells are powerful and the Domain
power is therefore somewhat weak. With other Domains, it is the other
way around.

For each spell level, a Cleric gets 1 Domain slot which can only be
filled with a prepared ("memorized", in AD&D speak) Domain slot, not a
regular slot. Domain spells will not always appear on the Cleric's
regular spell list (which is very extensive, therefore making Clerics
very much alike, much like Wizards (Mages) are) and can therefore be
somewhat more powerful than regular Cleric spells - or (and I assume
this is more likely) they may be Wizard (Mage) spells which are
unavailable to Clerics other than as Domain spells.

So Domains just give a little bit of flavour, the same way Wizard (Mage)
Specialization does. It doesn't come close to emulating that which is
found in non-D&D fantasy fiction.

Post by Beowulf Bolt
function the way they had before. The characters in that world would
just be learning about such things as feats (they wouldn't have been
'refitted' to possess them), and may well have lost abilities they once
had. The class of sorcerers would just be starting to be known. Fight
tactics would be undergoing a major change.

Fighters *would* be more distinctive from each other. *Much* more
distinctive. In particular Fighters with very high DX will no longer opt
for heavy armour (plate mail).

Sorcerers do not achieve their magic via studies, which will probably
make many Wizards (Mages) quite envious. Later on, the Wizards (Mages)
will take notice of the inflexibility of Sorcerer magic and become to
deride it (few-trick ponies, the lot of them!).

Post by Beowulf Bolt
What else would the characters in the world notice?

Attributes are actually relevant in D&D3.

In AD&D, there was a *wide* "dead zone" of attribute values, in which
the highest value from this zone was 100% game-mechanically similar to
the lowest value.

It did not matter, at all, whether your DEX was 7 or 14, whether your
CON was 7 or 14.

And this was in a game where the proper method of generating attributes
for minor NPCs was probably "roll 5d6, drop lowest and highest".

D&D3 fixes this. Now any attribute value that is not 10 or 11 gives a
modifier, and these modifiers are used throughout the system. Also minor
NPCs are explicitly generated with "roll 3d6".

So you'll see characters becoming much more capabilitistically distinctive.

In AD&D, attribute values were not a relevant part of party composition.
When somebody applied to join your party, you'd not realistically wonder
about what his attributes were, because chances were extreme that they'd
just be normal, i.e. in the "dead zone".

Now, in D&D3, attribute values matter. People will be noticably
different from each other in terms of intelligence, dexterity and
agility, health, strength, and intuition/perceptiveness.

Post by Beowulf Bolt
If it helps to focus the issue, the character whose Shadow this is has
a lot of contacts with a powerful LG martial order, who have themselves
been conferring on the issue with high-level mages, clerics, etc. The
type of info I'm looking for should be slanted towards the type of
things this group would primarily notice or be able to determine via
divinations.
(F'rexample, they are quite aware that the player in question was
ultimately responsible for the change, which will have... interesting...
repercussions on his interactions there.)
Thanks in advance for your assistance,

I think you ought to try to get the v3.5 Player's Handbook from the
library, or borrow it from somebody you know.

It's really quite well written (from a pedagogical point of view, that
is. I'm not talking about the quality of the rules engineering, although
of course it would require deliberate and talented effort to make
something worse than AD&D 1E/2E).

[Ophidian]

Post by Peter Knutsen (usenet)
I'm afraid you won't get any help with this, since the kind of people
who use the D&D family of rules systems tend to seriously not have any
interest in how the world looks from the character's perspective.

Hey guys, stop writing the flavor text describing the rooms in
the modules! Mo one cares!

Post by Peter Knutsen (usenet)
D&D land is extremely categorized and discrete, compared to most other
systems and in particular I cannot imagine that people would not notice
that characters, all characters, come in levels, with all the
consequences associated with that, including the fact that
capabilitistic advancement occurs in extremely abrupt jumps and fits,
rather than with any smoothness.

That's the mechanical model.
The worlds-eye view need not match the modelling precisely, or
vice versa.

Post by Peter Knutsen (usenet)
Nope. Domains work badly the same way Wizardly (formerly Mage) School
Specialization does, in that your choice of Domain (or Specialization)
fails to achieve its goal, which is to make your character fel like he's
a specialist, i.e. particularly good at something.

MMDD.

Post by Peter Knutsen (usenet)
In AD&D, there was a *wide* "dead zone" of attribute values, in which
the highest value from this zone was 100% game-mechanically similar to
the lowest value.
It did not matter, at all, whether your DEX was 7 or 14, whether your
CON was 7 or 14.

Unless something lowered or raised your ability. ;)

Post by Peter Knutsen (usenet)
D&D3 fixes this. Now any attribute value that is not 10 or 11 gives a
modifier, and these modifiers are used throughout the system. Also minor
NPCs are explicitly generated with "roll 3d6".

Explicitly?
Damn, a lot of us are cheating!

[~consul]

Post by Peter Knutsen (usenet)

Post by Beowulf Bolt
This change would *not* have been transparent to the inhabitants of the
world. They would be aware that things do not quite work in the manner
in which they used to.

Amusingly, some fiction was actually written about the Forgotten Realm's
transition from 1E to 2E rules (which was non-transparent to at least a
subste of the population). I remember a Moonshae trilogy by Douglas
Niles that I kinda liked as a kid. Re-reading it today might not
actually cause you any acute physical pain.

That reminds me, Dragonlance sort of did it in the books with the whole 3 moons becoming one moon, and how they went through a "Time of Troubles" like in the FR. It may be a close enough analogue for you characters to get a change in how they are statted, some big cosmic "event".

[tussock]

Behind the scenes, I felt an appropriate metaphor would be that the
world rules changed from v2 to v3.5.
My problem is that I have very limited experience with v3 or v3.5, all
of which as a player, and all dating back a couple of years.
Thus my question, in order to roleplay this out. What would the
*characters* in said world have noticed as a consequence of said change?

High level Wizards no longer /totally/ dominate the game, other
spellcasters have caught up and non-casters come *much* closer. A few
shifts in power amongst the old elite may occour.
Similarly, low level spellcasters are much more competant through
various means (Wizards can now all write backup scrolls for a reasonable
cost, and cast a few more per day to start).

Demi-humans are now a little weaker than humans overall (though
work well enough within their old specialties) but can reach the highest
levels of power just like humans. More shifts in power.

Humanoids, who were very limited in advancement, can now also scale
the heights. The common Orc is now quite a threat to begginners. Huge
shifts in power, exept in most worlds they still squabble amoungst
themselves most of the time.
Big potential for sweeping hordes with legendary captains.

All races can be of any class, Kobold Sorcerers, Lizardman Druids,
Goblin Rogues, and raging Orc Barbarians are common. PCs can be of most
any race, though the powerful ones are always several levels behind the
more standard races within a group, enough to be weaker overall.


The larger creatures got much nastier to the common folk, True
Giants and Dragons particularly so, the latter being full power
Sorcerers. Man-sized hatchling dragons become a much more common pest,
many dragon types like to leave clutches of eggs about which fend for
themselves in groups of half a dozen, particularly Reds.
Animals like the bigger bears (which Druids can command or even
shapechange to) are terrifying to characters before high levels.

What else would the characters in the world notice?

The ancient races like Elves and Dwarves (or even Dragons) have
found their spirit for breeding once more, lifespans are down a little
(no more immortal elves) but there's plenty of young ones coming of age.

The old magic items lying around in adventure modules and treasure
tables that most everyone had supposedly forgotten how to make (potions
and scrolls particularly) are now being churned out by spellcasters for
an active market.
Powerful items are still limited to being made by powerful
spellcasters, but it's easier for them too, albeit somewhat costly in
terms of XP for those seeking to profit from it.

If it helps to focus the issue, the character whose Shadow this is has
a lot of contacts with a powerful LG martial order, who have themselves
been conferring on the issue with high-level mages, clerics, etc. The
type of info I'm looking for should be slanted towards the type of
things this group would primarily notice or be able to determine via
divinations.

A Hobgoblin Paladin amoungst them may be an interesting cue, as may
the new allied nation of militant Hobgoblins and their fellow Goblinoids
he represents. "Wait a minute, didn't you guys used to live in caves?"
Similarly with the new threat of the supremely powerful Orc Barbarian
chief Gr'nk and his elite Ogre Rangers guard (plus powerful Clerics of
Gruumsh).

Hmm. Diamond dust has become a very important material component in
powerful spells (along with Rubies and a few other gem types), making
certain mines more than just a source of money. It's required in large
quantities for raising the dead which limits such things to those few
who can afford it.


I don't think the mechanics of how things work much matter. Fighter
options are made of Feats instead of WPs, Wizard extension type spells
and item creation options are done with Feats, but the game as a whole
has much the same options, just with a few minor changes in which
character level it appears and who can use it.
The ever-present two longswords are replaced by two-handed swords
and less heavy armour worn by quick characters, but such things are just
cosmetic to the world as a whole.

[Rupert Boleyn]

Post by tussock
Similarly, low level spellcasters are much more competant through
various means (Wizards can now all write backup scrolls for a reasonable
cost, and cast a few more per day to start).

Assuming the GM is a jolly nice person and allows the down-time to
manage this. Beware playing a wizard in a game with little down-time,
or little in the way of other wizards to trade/pinch new spells from.

Post by tussock
Humanoids, who were very limited in advancement, can now also scale
the heights. The common Orc is now quite a threat to begginners. Huge
shifts in power, exept in most worlds they still squabble amoungst
themselves most of the time.

And because they can level, you need to show a bit of respect to lowly
orc, goblins, etc. even at high levels - they might be high level too.

Post by tussock
The old magic items lying around in adventure modules and treasure
tables that most everyone had supposedly forgotten how to make (potions
and scrolls particularly) are now being churned out by spellcasters for
an active market.
Powerful items are still limited to being made by powerful
spellcasters, but it's easier for them too, albeit somewhat costly in
terms of XP for those seeking to profit from it.

What's more, with the clearly guidelines on what sort of treasure a
party should have an any given level you don't get the old-style thing
where you get a bunch of +1 arrows, a couple of +1 daggers, and a +2
longsword at 2nd level, and then see nothing until 5th. Nor do you
find +2 swords in woodpiles, as a rule.

[Ophidian]

Post by tussock
A Hobgoblin Paladin amoungst them may be an interesting cue, as may
the new allied nation of militant Hobgoblins and their fellow Goblinoids
he represents. "Wait a minute, didn't you guys used to live in caves?"
Similarly with the new threat of the supremely powerful Orc Barbarian
chief Gr'nk and his elite Ogre Rangers guard (plus powerful Clerics of
Gruumsh).

On that note, Orcs are now usually Chaotic Evil rather than Lawful.
No more highly organized Orc armies, they are rampaging hordes now.

[Lizard]

On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 15:46:56 GMT, Beowulf Bolt <abd.al-***@shaw.ca>
wrotC:DRIVE_E

Post by Beowulf Bolt
What else would the characters in the world notice?

It would look a lot like this:

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=1

[Jens Egon Nyborg]

Post by Lizard
wrotC:DRIVE_E

Post by Beowulf Bolt
What else would the characters in the world notice?

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=1

Or like this:

http://thunt.comicgen.com/d/20060217.html