Discussion:
What is the best overall RPG?
(too old to reply)
Chuk Goodin
2004-08-12 22:44:45 UTC
Permalink
(3E is NOT the best overall RPG, IMCGO, one should note. It's the
best incarnation of D&D, IMCGO. I'd be hard-pressed to decide on one
"best" RPG; I'd probably have to select one in each category, but even
in Fantasy, no version of D&D would win)
This made me wonder what he would select as the best RPG (or even the best
in each category). Then it was only a short step to "And what would
everybody else think?"

So, what are people's favourite RPGs? Maybe broken down into categories,
maybe just one for everything. Why is that your favourite? I'm more
interested in hearing about actual published systems rather than just "I
like this home-made mishmash I've been using for twenty years", but if
your mishmash handles something in an innovative way, that might be
interesting, too.

I will be rude and follow up my own post in the next day or two.
--
chuk
Ross Winn
2004-08-13 00:39:26 UTC
Permalink
(3E is NOT the best overall RPG, IMCGO, one should note. It's the
best incarnation of D&D, IMCGO. I'd be hard-pressed to decide on one
"best" RPG; I'd probably have to select one in each category, but even
in Fantasy, no version of D&D would win)
I think that calling anything the best is ludicrous, as well as a troll.

All games are best for what they are best for.
--
ross_winn @ mac.com
"Not just another ugly face..."
Brian Gleichman
2004-08-13 01:01:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chuk Goodin
So, what are people's favourite RPGs? Maybe broken down into categories,
maybe just one for everything. Why is that your favourite? I'm more
interested in hearing about actual published systems rather than just "I
like this home-made mishmash I've been using for twenty years", but if
your mishmash handles something in an innovative way, that might be
interesting, too.
Well of course my own mishmash is my fav, but it doesn't do anything in a
innovative way. The sum of the parts however appeals to me and gives me a
gaming experience unlike any published game.

For the published ones, HERO System stands heads and shoulders above the
rest. I wrote on article on the subject that's published on the web
somewhere...
Rupert Boleyn
2004-08-13 08:15:02 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 20:01:44 -0500, "Brian Gleichman"
Post by Brian Gleichman
For the published ones, HERO System stands heads and shoulders above the
rest. I wrote on article on the subject that's published on the web
somewhere...
Does that still stand with the things done in 5th that you dislike?
--
Rupert Boleyn <***@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."
Brian Gleichman
2004-08-13 11:05:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rupert Boleyn
Does that still stand with the things done in 5th that you dislike?
Yes. It's easy enough to drop in a couple of house rules and do away with
Long's mistakes. Lucky for us he was working with a solid core product.
Peter Knutsen
2004-08-13 20:23:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Gleichman
Well of course my own mishmash is my fav, but it doesn't do anything in a
innovative way. The sum of the parts however appeals to me and gives me a
I've *had* to innovate with FFRE, because I wanted things done
that no other systems (as far as I know) had done. The two
mechaics that spring immediately to mind are Craft and Essence.

Craft is a social advantage (like Increased Cash/Equipment,
Contacts or Legal Rights) that you buy during character
creation, which then lets your character start the game with a
self-created item. As an example, if your character has a high
Smith: Sword skill, you can pay a number of Perk Points, which
then convert into a number of Craft Points, based on your Smith:
Sword skill. You then spend these Craft Points to purchase one
or more swords, and can use the option to get to start the game
with a superbly crafted weapon. This is because characters with
"production type" skills are unable, in other systems, to
utilize such skills before game-start, and thus as soon as teh
campaign starts, the character (and/or the player) will wish to
find a quiet work shop in which he can utilize his skill (e.g.
to brew healing potions, or enchant magical items, or make bows
and arrows) to use in subsequent adventures. Whereas the other
characters (chiefly influenced by their players) wish to get
started adventuring, and may be very reluctant to give their
comrade several days (let alone week) to spend in a work shop,
right away. Years ago, I explained this problem on the
RPG-Create mailing list, and asked for solutions, but no one was
able to come up with one. Some time later (half a year, IIRC) I
managed to squeeze one out of my brain: The current Craft
sub-system. (After character creation, you no longer use the
Craft rules. You just roll dice the normal way. This also
satisfies my strong "no dice rolls during character creation"
preference).

Essence is a personal and non-renewable reserve (originally
called Life Force - thanks to the RPG-Create mailing list for
pointing out more suitable terms for me!). Characters spend it
to render magic permanent, e.g. in the form of enchanting an
item or binding a familiar. This is because I dislike the fact
that in every other systematic RPG rules system, the "limitator"
on magic items is time - it costs months or years to make a
magic sword, e.g. This has the net effect of pushing magic item
creation into the realm of NPC activity, which I resent. The
alternative is that characters just spend Essence to render
magic permanent, meaning that the time factor can be drastically
reduced. Enchantment still takes time, for the sake of "sense of
realism", but only a few hours, or a few days for powerful
magics. (The original inspiration comes from an old Forum letter
in TSR's Dragon, in which someone suggested a concept called
Life Energy Levels, as a more sensible replacement for the AD&D
"level drain" rules. IIRC it didn't take me long to realize how
a somewhat similar concept could be used to limit Enchantment).

In neither case did I seek innovation. I searched high and low,
hoping that some previous rules engineer had found a solution,
so that I could steal it and thus spare some time and effort.
But in these two cases (and probably a few more, which don't
immediately come to mind) I was unable to find any prior solutions.
Post by Brian Gleichman
gaming experience unlike any published game.
--
Peter Knutsen
knutsen.dk
Brandon Cope
2004-08-13 03:53:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chuk Goodin
(3E is NOT the best overall RPG, IMCGO, one should note. It's the
best incarnation of D&D, IMCGO. I'd be hard-pressed to decide on one
"best" RPG; I'd probably have to select one in each category, but even
in Fantasy, no version of D&D would win)
This made me wonder what he would select as the best RPG (or even the best
in each category). Then it was only a short step to "And what would
everybody else think?"
So, what are people's favourite RPGs?
"Favorite" and "best" aren't the same thing ;)

For favorite (and favorite only):

1. GURPS: Does just about everything I want it to, or lets me modify
it to what I want.

2. D6 Star Wars: Fast and fun.

3. Talislanta: Only as a player, not a GM. Like it a lot.

4. FUDGE: If I ever left GURPS for another multi-genre game system,
this would be it. Suits my current preference for rules-light systems
perfectly, but parts of it aren't as crunchy as I'd like.

5. Big Eyes, Small Mouth: Never played or GMed, but the rules read
well. I put this behind GURPS and FUDGE because it is more limited in
the styles and genres it would handle well.

Honorable Mention: Lords of Creation: Had a lot of fun with this,
despite the game mechanics leaving a *lot* to be desired.

Brandon
Beowulf Bolt
2004-08-13 14:44:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brandon Cope
Honorable Mention: Lords of Creation: Had a lot of fun with this,
despite the game mechanics leaving a *lot* to be desired.
Good God is *that* an understatement!

As a complete novice to RPGs this was the first system I purchased and
attempted to run a bunch of my friends (likewise novices) through. The
attempt was an unmitigated disaster until we switched to MERP and later
D&D (the boxed sets).

Perhaps having the years of experience I now have, I could understand
and run the system. Mind you, with the experience I now have, I'd never
waste my time...

Biff
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------
"All around me darkness gathers, fading is the sun that shone,
we must speak of other matters, you can be me when I'm gone..."
- SANDMAN #67, Neil Gaiman
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter Knutsen
2004-08-13 20:24:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brandon Cope
4. FUDGE: If I ever left GURPS for another multi-genre game system,
this would be it. Suits my current preference for rules-light systems
perfectly, but parts of it aren't as crunchy as I'd like.
Which parts are those? I'm honestly curious...
--
Peter Knutsen
knutsen.dk
Rupert Boleyn
2004-08-13 08:20:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chuk Goodin
This made me wonder what he would select as the best RPG (or even the best
in each category). Then it was only a short step to "And what would
everybody else think?"
Best and favourite aren't the same thing.
Post by Chuk Goodin
So, what are people's favourite RPGs? Maybe broken down into categories,
maybe just one for everything. Why is that your favourite? I'm more
interested in hearing about actual published systems rather than just "I
like this home-made mishmash I've been using for twenty years", but if
your mishmash handles something in an innovative way, that might be
interesting, too.
Well, in many ways I think Hero's the best game I've ever seen or
played. However, it's not my favourite, though I don't really know
what game would be. I've probably spent more time mucking round with
various breeds of Traveller than any other game (of them TNE, more
than the rest), so maybe it is. However I've spent a lot of time
running Rolemaster, and more recently D&D3. I still think RuneQuest
(both 2 and 3) is a great game, though it has issues with character
advancement, and I like C&S a fair bit. GURPS was good, though it
became unwieldy - I'm looking forward to 4th ed with anticipation.

Darned if I know what my favourite is, though if GURPS 4th ed is good
it might just be.
--
Rupert Boleyn <***@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."
David Meadows
2004-08-14 21:33:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chuk Goodin
So, what are people's favourite RPGs? Maybe broken down into categories,
maybe just one for everything. Why is that your favourite? I'm more
interested in hearing about actual published systems rather than just "I
like this home-made mishmash I've been using for twenty years", but if
your mishmash handles something in an innovative way, that might be
interesting, too.
My favourite RPG is Golden Heroes, a superhero game. The rules mechanisms
fit the superhero genre better than any other system I've played. It's
extremely simple and fast to play. It's very flexible, almost freeform, in
character creation and advancement, which suits a long-term campaign. It was
lacking in many areas that are usually considered essential in an RPG, but
the simplicity of the framework made it easy to add on house rules to plug
the gaps. I had a TON of house rules, but I think it's interesting to note
that all my rules *added* to the basic system and never actually *replaced*
any of it.
--
David Meadows
"Hiding out on a pig farm saved my life." -- Don, Heroes #18
www.heroes.force9.co.uk/scripts
A comic book -- without the pictures
Hendrik Belitz
2004-08-13 08:26:58 UTC
Permalink
Well, the best ones:

1.) Ars Magica. The best magic system i've ever seen and a very beautiful,
detailed background.
2.) H^arnmaster/H^arnworld. Once you've understood the rules, the system is
fast and extremly realistic. The background world is also very detailed and
consistent. Both system and background are very low on fantasy, but for me
that's no drawback but perfect.
3.) Midgard (A very old german system. I dunno if it has been translated
into other languages). Easy, fast System with great freedom for the
players.
--
To get my real email adress, remove the two onkas
--
Hendrik Belitz
- Abort, Retry, Fthagn? -
Gary Johnson
2004-08-13 10:00:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chuk Goodin
(3E is NOT the best overall RPG, IMCGO, one should note. It's the
best incarnation of D&D, IMCGO. I'd be hard-pressed to decide on one
"best" RPG; I'd probably have to select one in each category, but even
in Fantasy, no version of D&D would win)
This made me wonder what he would select as the best RPG (or even the
best in each category). Then it was only a short step to "And what would
everybody else think?"
So, what are people's favourite RPGs? Maybe broken down into categories,
maybe just one for everything. Why is that your favourite?
I like the HERO System and the d20 (D&D) System: even though I use
extensive house rules for both of the games I run (supers with the HERO
System, fantasy with the d20 System), the delivered rules give me a solid
framework to start from: I find the transparency of their game
systems pleasing.

I also like the ideas, the feeling of creativity I get from reading older
fantasy game systems like Dragon Warriors and Lace & Steel, but the way
they're implemented frustrates me. One of my design goals that I've yet to
seriously work on for my d20 house rules is a way of modelling "set-piece"
social conflict at a finer degree of detail, so that social settings can
have as much risk and complexity as combat settings: I really like the way
Lace & Steel used the same mechanics for witty repartee and for duelling,
for instance, but I don't like that they used a card-based mechanic, or
that the mechanic only works for those two types of conflict.

Some thoughts,

Gary Johnson
--
Home Page: http://www.uq.net.au/~zzjohnsg
X-Men Campaign Resources: http://members.optusnet.com.au/xmen_campaign
Fantasy Campaign Setting: http://www.uq.net.au/~zzjohnsg/selentia.htm
Sea Wasp
2004-08-13 11:31:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chuk Goodin
(3E is NOT the best overall RPG, IMCGO, one should note. It's the
best incarnation of D&D, IMCGO. I'd be hard-pressed to decide on one
"best" RPG; I'd probably have to select one in each category, but even
in Fantasy, no version of D&D would win)
This made me wonder what he would select as the best RPG (or even the best
in each category). Then it was only a short step to "And what would
everybody else think?"
So, what are people's favourite RPGs?
Generic: GURPS. I don't particularly like generic games, but if I
must play one, I find GURPS the best.

Modern-Day Adventure: As I tend toward the cinematic, I'd say Feng
Shui. I can always not-use special powers if I'm trying to do
something without the mystical.

Fantasy: Practically speaking, 3E, simply because it's easier to work
with players that way. The Arcanum would be in the running. Talislanta
was the most fun to READ, though.

Superheroes: Villains and Vigilantes.

Space Gaming: Space Opera.

"Other": AMBER. In a pinch, I can run ANYTHING using Amber.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/seawasp/
Beowulf Bolt
2004-08-13 15:31:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chuk Goodin
So, what are people's favourite RPGs?
1) _Call of Cthulhu_ is my favourite by far. Probably the result of
the setting moreso than the system itself, but I find that the system
doesn't get in the way too much of establishing the proper mood, unlike
other "Supernatural Horror" RPGs I've played (like _Beyond the
Supernatural_, _Ravenloft_ under D&D 2nd, and _In Nomine_).

2) _Ringworld_. Another Chaosium game (with fundamentally the same
mechanics as CoC). Again my fondness has as much to do with the setting
as the system, but the system again didn't get in the way as much as in
most other Space Opera/SciFi-ish systems I've played (including one
version of _Traveler_, _Living Steel_, _Space Master_, _Fading Suns_
[yecch], etc.)

3) _Harnmaster_. The system has its quirks (which doesn't?), but I
like the way combat flows and _Harnworld_ was an amazing product for its
time. It might, however, be overrated in my memories because the
longest campaign I've ever played under this system had a tremendous GM
who was able to work around any bugs in the system such that I don't
remember them standing out.

4) _Champions_/_Fuzion_. A reluctant choice to add to this list, but
for the superhero genre I've liked this system better than _DC Heroes_,
_GURPS Supers_, and the classic version of _Marvel Super Heroes_
(though the latest incarnation of that sounds really interesting). A
reasonably flexible system, if over-encumbered by dice. There are a
number of things I like more about each of the other systems named, but
I've experienced the best playability under _Champions_/_Fuzion_.

5) _FUDGE_. Okay, so I've never actually played it. Yet. If and
when I ever run my planned _Amber_ campaign, however, I am ditching the
published system in favour of a FUDGE adaptation of it.


Hrm. From rereading the above it looks like I am raving about
settings more than systems. In my defence, let me state that there are
a number of settings that I absolutely love - as in _Warhammer_, _Legend
of the Five Rings_, _7th Sea_, _Fading Suns_, _Babylon 5_, _MERP_,
_Amber_, _Living Steel_, etc. - but where the systems just get in the
way of a fun campaign in these settings. IMO, of course.

Then there is D&D. The system used in the most successful (and fun)
campaigns that I have ever run, and the system used in a number of my
favourite campaigns. Nonetheless, I'd not consider any version of it
(having played the boxed sets, AD&D, 2nd & 3rd Ed.) to be amongst the
best systems or my favorites. Playing with D&D is quick, easy, and good
for finding players familiar with the system, but the system has always
needed a lot of tweaking, and is more a game of tactical resource
manipulation than a foundation for effortless role-playing, IMO. Fun
campaigns in D&D in my experience have arisen from the interaction of
the plot and players *despite* the system, rather than aided by it.

Biff
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------
"All around me darkness gathers, fading is the sun that shone,
we must speak of other matters, you can be me when I'm gone..."
- SANDMAN #67, Neil Gaiman
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Chuk Goodin
2004-08-16 20:57:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Beowulf Bolt
Then there is D&D. The system used in the most successful (and fun)
campaigns that I have ever run, and the system used in a number of my
favourite campaigns. Nonetheless, I'd not consider any version of it
(having played the boxed sets, AD&D, 2nd & 3rd Ed.) to be amongst the
best systems or my favorites. Playing with D&D is quick, easy, and good
for finding players familiar with the system, but the system has always
needed a lot of tweaking, and is more a game of tactical resource
manipulation than a foundation for effortless role-playing, IMO. Fun
campaigns in D&D in my experience have arisen from the interaction of
the plot and players *despite* the system, rather than aided by it.
I'd have to second a lot of that. A lot of gamers are casual enough that
they never look beyond the first system they run into -- almost "they
never know what they're missing". I gave up on AD&D with 2nd edition, but
I have played 3rd. It's a HUGE improvement -- except that they didn't get
rid of classes or levels, and they still handle hit points mostly the same
way.

Still, a good GM and players can make anything work, and it's probably the
system that most gamers are likely to have in common (I'll notice that not
too many people posted the same "favourite" system in this thread, so if
most gamers only play a few systems, D&D might be the _only_ one they have
in common.)
--
chuk
Sea Wasp
2004-08-16 22:03:28 UTC
Permalink
Chuk Goodin wrote:
I gave up on AD&D with 2nd edition, but
Post by Chuk Goodin
I have played 3rd. It's a HUGE improvement -- except that they didn't get
rid of classes or levels, and they still handle hit points mostly the same
way.
It would be pointless to get rid of classes or levels; it would
definitely no longer be D&D at that point. That's one of the true
defining characteristics of D&D, and the whole point of 3E was to
improve D&D to be THE BEST VERSION OF DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS THEY COULD
MAKE.

In many ways, this was one of the most challenging game-design
projects I have ever seen. How, exactly, do you change major portions
of the oldest RPG in history -- most of them aspects of the system
which have been basically unchallenged ever since its inception -- and
yet leave it clearly THE SAME GAME?

Overall, I think WotC succeeded. It's an amazing piece of work.

Removing classes and levels would have just reduced it to Yet Another
Silly Point Based System. There's no point in taking "D&D" and turning
into "GURPS" or "Champions" or something like that.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/seawasp/
Chuk Goodin
2004-08-17 18:01:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chuk Goodin
I gave up on AD&D with 2nd edition, but
Post by Chuk Goodin
I have played 3rd. It's a HUGE improvement -- except that they didn't get
rid of classes or levels, and they still handle hit points mostly the same
way.
It would be pointless to get rid of classes or levels; it would
definitely no longer be D&D at that point. That's one of the true
defining characteristics of D&D, and the whole point of 3E was to
improve D&D to be THE BEST VERSION OF DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS THEY COULD
MAKE.
Isn't there a mostly point based version of the d20 rules around? BESM
d20, maybe? It's too bad they had to limit themselves to "THE BEST VERSION
OF DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS THEY COULD MAKE" instead of the best RPG they
could make -- it'd be nice to have some flexibility in character creation
after all these years.
Post by Chuk Goodin
In many ways, this was one of the most challenging game-design
projects I have ever seen. How, exactly, do you change major portions
of the oldest RPG in history -- most of them aspects of the system
which have been basically unchallenged ever since its inception -- and
yet leave it clearly THE SAME GAME?
Overall, I think WotC succeeded. It's an amazing piece of work.
It's pretty darn good, all right, especially after the mess that was 2nd
edition. Could have been so much better, though.
--
chuk
Sea Wasp
2004-08-17 22:44:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chuk Goodin
Post by Chuk Goodin
I gave up on AD&D with 2nd edition, but
Post by Chuk Goodin
I have played 3rd. It's a HUGE improvement -- except that they didn't get
rid of classes or levels, and they still handle hit points mostly the same
way.
It would be pointless to get rid of classes or levels; it would
definitely no longer be D&D at that point. That's one of the true
defining characteristics of D&D, and the whole point of 3E was to
improve D&D to be THE BEST VERSION OF DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS THEY COULD
MAKE.
Isn't there a mostly point based version of the d20 rules around? BESM
d20, maybe? It's too bad they had to limit themselves to "THE BEST VERSION
OF DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS THEY COULD MAKE" instead of the best RPG they
could make -- it'd be nice to have some flexibility in character creation
after all these years.
And it would have sold 1/10 as much. That would have been dumb. The
point of making it stay D&D was to keep the value of the most valuable
brand name in the industry.
Post by Chuk Goodin
Post by Chuk Goodin
In many ways, this was one of the most challenging game-design
projects I have ever seen. How, exactly, do you change major portions
of the oldest RPG in history -- most of them aspects of the system
which have been basically unchallenged ever since its inception -- and
yet leave it clearly THE SAME GAME?
Overall, I think WotC succeeded. It's an amazing piece of work.
It's pretty darn good, all right, especially after the mess that was 2nd
edition. Could have been so much better, though.
I don't know how. There are some relatively minor mods I could think
of, but none that would accomplish the goal of making it a better game
AND still being D&D. If it doesn't accomplish the latter, it would be
pointless; The Arcanum is the best D&DLIKE game made previously.
Talislanta is a hell of a game for one of the oldies. For funky
adventure mechanics I'd probably use Feng Shui. For a Generic,
probably GURPS.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/seawasp/
Nikolas Landauer
2004-08-18 01:24:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sea Wasp
Post by Chuk Goodin
Isn't there a mostly point based version of the d20 rules around?
BESM d20, maybe? It's too bad they had to limit themselves to "THE
BEST VERSION OF DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS THEY COULD MAKE" instead of
the best RPG they could make -- it'd be nice to have some
flexibility in character creation after all these years.
And it would have sold 1/10 as much. That would have been dumb.
The point of making it stay D&D was to keep the value of the
most valuable brand name in the industry.
There is going to be a _d20 Past_ book released at some time next year.
It'll basically modify the mechanics of _d20 Modern_ slightly, and
provide a lot of possible settings and support material for various
campaigns in, I assume, both historical and fantastical forms. Think
the reverse direction from, but similar structure to, _d20 Future_.
--
Nik
Brandon Cope
2004-08-18 19:47:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sea Wasp
Post by Chuk Goodin
Post by Chuk Goodin
I gave up on AD&D with 2nd edition, but
Post by Chuk Goodin
I have played 3rd. It's a HUGE improvement -- except that they didn't get
rid of classes or levels, and they still handle hit points mostly the same
way.
It would be pointless to get rid of classes or levels; it would
definitely no longer be D&D at that point. That's one of the true
defining characteristics of D&D, and the whole point of 3E was to
improve D&D to be THE BEST VERSION OF DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS THEY COULD
MAKE.
Isn't there a mostly point based version of the d20 rules around? BESM
d20, maybe? It's too bad they had to limit themselves to "THE BEST VERSION
OF DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS THEY COULD MAKE" instead of the best RPG they
could make -- it'd be nice to have some flexibility in character creation
after all these years.
And it would have sold 1/10 as much. That would have been dumb. The
point of making it stay D&D was to keep the value of the most valuable
brand name in the industry.
This sounds like you're saying that its okay for profit to be more
important than product quality ...

Brandon
Sea Wasp
2004-08-18 22:29:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brandon Cope
Post by Sea Wasp
Post by Chuk Goodin
Post by Chuk Goodin
I gave up on AD&D with 2nd edition, but
Post by Chuk Goodin
I have played 3rd. It's a HUGE improvement -- except that they didn't get
rid of classes or levels, and they still handle hit points mostly the same
way.
It would be pointless to get rid of classes or levels; it would
definitely no longer be D&D at that point. That's one of the true
defining characteristics of D&D, and the whole point of 3E was to
improve D&D to be THE BEST VERSION OF DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS THEY COULD
MAKE.
Isn't there a mostly point based version of the d20 rules around? BESM
d20, maybe? It's too bad they had to limit themselves to "THE BEST VERSION
OF DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS THEY COULD MAKE" instead of the best RPG they
could make -- it'd be nice to have some flexibility in character creation
after all these years.
And it would have sold 1/10 as much. That would have been dumb. The
point of making it stay D&D was to keep the value of the most valuable
brand name in the industry.
This sounds like you're saying that its okay for profit to be more
important than product quality ...
It certainly is. If I'm running a company and the question is "can I
keep all of us fed?", and the choice is "make niche product which
*SOME* people will think is better, and dump 3/4 of our employees, OR
make the product which will be pretty damn good but won't satisfy
those *SOME* people I mentioned earlier, but WILL allow us to keep
most or all of our people employed", yeah, screw whatever some small
subsegment of the potential market thinks is quality.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/seawasp/
Brandon Cope
2004-08-21 20:58:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sea Wasp
Post by Brandon Cope
Post by Sea Wasp
Post by Chuk Goodin
Post by Chuk Goodin
I gave up on AD&D with 2nd edition, but
Post by Chuk Goodin
I have played 3rd. It's a HUGE improvement -- except that they didn't get
rid of classes or levels, and they still handle hit points mostly the same
way.
It would be pointless to get rid of classes or levels; it would
definitely no longer be D&D at that point. That's one of the true
defining characteristics of D&D, and the whole point of 3E was to
improve D&D to be THE BEST VERSION OF DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS THEY COULD
MAKE.
Isn't there a mostly point based version of the d20 rules around? BESM
d20, maybe? It's too bad they had to limit themselves to "THE BEST VERSION
OF DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS THEY COULD MAKE" instead of the best RPG they
could make -- it'd be nice to have some flexibility in character creation
after all these years.
And it would have sold 1/10 as much. That would have been dumb. The
point of making it stay D&D was to keep the value of the most valuable
brand name in the industry.
This sounds like you're saying that its okay for profit to be more
important than product quality ...
It certainly is.
Then we'll have to disagree. I couldn't, in good conscience, try to
sell someone a product that I knew wasn't the best I could make

Brandon
s***@sonic.net
2004-08-26 14:15:15 UTC
Permalink
Long ago, in a galaxy far, far away, Brandon Cope
Post by Brandon Cope
Post by Sea Wasp
Post by Brandon Cope
Post by Sea Wasp
Post by Chuk Goodin
Isn't there a mostly point based version of the d20 rules around? BESM
d20, maybe? It's too bad they had to limit themselves to "THE BEST
VERSION OF DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS THEY COULD MAKE" instead of the best
RPG they could make -- it'd be nice to have some flexibility in
character creation after all these years.
And it would have sold 1/10 as much. That would have been dumb. The
point of making it stay D&D was to keep the value of the most valuable
brand name in the industry.
This sounds like you're saying that its okay for profit to be more
important than product quality ...
It certainly is.
Then we'll have to disagree. I couldn't, in good conscience, try to
sell someone a product that I knew wasn't the best I could make
Thing is, "best" is a relative (not absolute) term, when it comes to
things like this. As has been amply proven by the wide list of "best"
games that different folks have posted, *NO* game is "best" for us all.
Some folks' "best" games will be perpetual niche players in the RPG
market, no matter how "good" those games seem to their proponents (e.g.
I'll join a prior poster in saying that "Ars Magica" is the "best"
"medieval(esque) european(esque) fantasy" RPG -- but it'll never be a
Big Player in the market.).

As the Wasp seems to grasp, D&D's class/level system was *deliberately*
retained *despite* some folks' "modern" preference for point-buy and
other "flexible" char-gen options (note that with Feats, Skills, and
the more-liberal multiclassing rules, there *is* some flexibility)
but many of the "old-school" elements of D&D (AD&D 3e) are seen as
*part* of the brand-identity, and loosing them would loose a huge
percentage of the fanbase. Wasp suggests 90% loss, but frankly *ALL*
of us naming numbers are pulling 'em out of our... well. Ahem.

Remember this: TSR/WotC/Hasbro is the *ONLY* RPG manufacturer to ever
invest in serious, large-scale (and likely reliable) market research.
They gave out a small amount of interesting info, which was nice of 'em,
but most of it was confidential. They know the market better than
anyone else. I'm not sure how much of the design mandate to Tweet/
Cook &Co came from WotC's grasp of the market, but us whiners^H^H^H^H^H
fans probably don't have the broad-scale view needed to make informed
judgements on the issue. Our views are strictly "anecdotal."
--
Steve Saunders
to de-spam me, de-capitalize me
Chuk Goodin
2004-08-18 19:41:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sea Wasp
Post by Chuk Goodin
Post by Sea Wasp
It would be pointless to get rid of classes or levels; it would
definitely no longer be D&D at that point. That's one of the true
defining characteristics of D&D, and the whole point of 3E was to
improve D&D to be THE BEST VERSION OF DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS THEY COULD
MAKE.
Isn't there a mostly point based version of the d20 rules around? BESM
d20, maybe? It's too bad they had to limit themselves to "THE BEST VERSION
OF DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS THEY COULD MAKE" instead of the best RPG they
could make -- it'd be nice to have some flexibility in character creation
after all these years.
And it would have sold 1/10 as much. That would have been dumb. The
point of making it stay D&D was to keep the value of the most valuable
brand name in the industry.
They could have kept the name and probably sold just as much, plus got the
new influx of people who actually like flexibility and realism in their
rules. It'd be a win-win situation.
--
chuk
Sea Wasp
2004-08-18 22:32:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chuk Goodin
They could have kept the name and probably sold just as much, plus got the
new influx of people who actually like flexibility and realism in their
rules. It'd be a win-win situation.
I suspect they'd have lost more of those who LIKE D&D and are used to
it, and were (just barely) willing to make the transition to 3E
because it somehow "felt" right.

I know *I* wouldn't have bought it if they'd gone that far. As I
said, doing a point-based system has been done before. Talislanta, as
Cope mentioned accurately, would be a good stab at emulating what such
a 3e D&D would've been like... and I already OWN Tal. I also have The
Arcanum, and Rolemaster, and just about all the other games which
might have been something like what such a version of "D&D" would have
been.

We'll have to just disagree on this, because I think that loosing
that "look and feel" would have been utterly devastating for the product.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/seawasp/
Chuk Goodin
2004-08-19 18:00:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sea Wasp
We'll have to just disagree on this, because I think that loosing
that "look and feel" would have been utterly devastating for the product.
No. Let's get an alternate Earth that's still in the mid-90s, go over
there and set up the release of D&D 3.0 to be a point based, more
realistic classless levelless system. Then, when they turn out to have a
better game that sells just as much, you'll see that I was right all
along.

Or I guess we could do it your way.
--
chuk
Sea Wasp
2004-08-19 23:16:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chuk Goodin
Post by Sea Wasp
We'll have to just disagree on this, because I think that loosing
that "look and feel" would have been utterly devastating for the product.
No. Let's get an alternate Earth that's still in the mid-90s, go over
there and set up the release of D&D 3.0 to be a point based, more
realistic classless levelless system. Then, when they turn out to have a
better game that sells just as much, you'll see that I was right all
along.
Or I guess we could do it your way.
If we can set up alternate Earths, I want the one where Digital
Knight happened to be seen by just the right people and is now in
production to be a mega-blockbuster movie-and-series and I'm cut in
for percentages. Screw this 3e experiment.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/seawasp/
Chuk Goodin
2004-08-20 16:57:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sea Wasp
Post by Chuk Goodin
No. Let's get an alternate Earth that's still in the mid-90s, go over
there and set up the release of D&D 3.0 to be a point based, more
realistic classless levelless system. Then, when they turn out to have a
better game that sells just as much, you'll see that I was right all
along.
Or I guess we could do it your way.
If we can set up alternate Earths, I want the one where Digital
Knight happened to be seen by just the right people and is now in
production to be a mega-blockbuster movie-and-series and I'm cut in
for percentages. Screw this 3e experiment.
Actually, I think I'd like that better too (although it'd be _really_ hard
to get me cut in for percentages. Even without them, I think I'd rather
see some more smart fun SF TV/movie than a better version of D&D.)
--
chuk
Sea Wasp
2004-08-20 21:20:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chuk Goodin
Post by Sea Wasp
Post by Chuk Goodin
No. Let's get an alternate Earth that's still in the mid-90s, go over
there and set up the release of D&D 3.0 to be a point based, more
realistic classless levelless system. Then, when they turn out to have a
better game that sells just as much, you'll see that I was right all
along.
Or I guess we could do it your way.
If we can set up alternate Earths, I want the one where Digital
Knight happened to be seen by just the right people and is now in
production to be a mega-blockbuster movie-and-series and I'm cut in
for percentages. Screw this 3e experiment.
Actually, I think I'd like that better too (although it'd be _really_ hard
to get me cut in for percentages. Even without them, I think I'd rather
see some more smart fun SF TV/movie than a better version of D&D.)
Well, go set up that universal transmogrification parameter then!

I'll cut you in on a percentage myself!
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/seawasp/
Peter Knutsen
2004-08-13 20:11:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chuk Goodin
This made me wonder what he would select as the best RPG (or even the best
in each category). Then it was only a short step to "And what would
everybody else think?"
So, what are people's favourite RPGs? Maybe broken down into categories,
maybe just one for everything. Why is that your favourite? I'm more
interested in hearing about actual published systems rather than just "I
like this home-made mishmash I've been using for twenty years", but if
your mishmash handles something in an innovative way, that might be
interesting, too.
My homebrew (which has been going under the term FFRE for a
number of years now, but which will soon be re-named, with "Free
Fudge-light Roleplaying gaming Engine" as the subtitle) is
largely a hybrid of two published RPG systems, so obviously
there is something in each of those two systems that I like a lot:

GURPS is good because of the basic character creation
philosophy, which is that you can have *any* trait which
*exists* in the *game* *world*, for your character, for a price.
This means that you can dream up a character (*any* character),
and then divide that character into component parts (many of
which synergize - I see synergies in a lot of places in the real
world, so obviously for a game world to feel real, it must have
synergies too) and assign a point cost to each part, and the sum
of those costs is the desirability of the character from the
point of view of a "generalized" or "averaged" roleplaying gamer
- one who apprecites *all* kinds of competence and ability, not
just those that are related directly or indirectly to combat.

Quest FRP is good for different reasons. First of all, it has
many attributes. That's not entirely new to me. The system under
which I learned to roleplay (a licensed BRP/Runequest clone) has
seven attributes, so the four attributes of GURPS, or the three
attributes of BESM, is certainly not new to me. But Quest FRP
has nine. And some of the choices are quite good. For instance,
I like the distinction between Intelligence and Magic Talent - I
think it's boring when *every* potential Mensan is also eligible
to join the Mage's Guild, I'd much rather have a few stupid
mages around, plus a few smart people who are inept at learning
magic. Also the distinction between Agility and Dexterity is
very useful, allowing for some character concepts that can't
work under one-attribute systems. For instance, some years ago I
dreamed up a character concept which was literally inexpressably
under D&D (any edition - except maybe Players Options/Skills &
Powers, or whatever it's called. IIRC it splits each of the six
attributes up into two sub-attributes, although I wonder if it
makes much mechanical difference), because he warranted a very
high Dexterity but an Agility that was only around average. Then
there's the relation between attributes and skills. Pretty much
every other system posits an additive effect of innate talent
upon skill performance. But Quest FRP instead posits a
multiplicative effect, which happens to be both much more
realistic, and much harder (I'd say impossible, unless the
implementation is incompetently done) to abuse. In fact, by far
the primary reason for why I'm not using GURPS is that
high-attribute characters don't work in GURPS. They're *too*
*good*, to the point where even if the GM allows you to actually
play one, the other players will resent you for having optimized
your character to an abusive degree. And raising the cost of
attributes will not solve the problem. Quest FRP showed an
alternative, although unfortunately the implementation failed to
let high-attribute characters actually be *good*. So that's
something I've fixed in my homebrew. The last really neat bit
about Quest FRP is the magic system. I just liked the way magic
was divided into spell lists (Fire, Illusion, Necromancy...),
and also the way it could do religions with differently themed
magic, utilizing historical religions in an extremely flavourful
and atmospheric fashion (Rabbis could create golems, for
instance, Druids could work nature spells, and Norse Priests
could use rune magic).

That's saying one good thing about GURPS and four good things
about Quest FRP, but this doesn't mean that Quest FRP is four
times as good as GURPS. I find it bothersome that Quest FRP
lacks social skills, for instance, and as I said earlier it
fails to let high-attribute characters be good. The skill
learning speed span between a character of average Will (12) and
average Intellect (12), and a character of very high Will (18)
and very high Intellect (18) is only 1.5:1, and that's
unrealistically low. Quest FRP is also largely unconcerned with
non-combat conflicts. Not as bad as, e.g., AD&D, but still
inferior to GURPS in this regard.

Most of you probably already know that Steve Jackson Games will
publish a new version of GURPS very soon, 4th Edition. It tries
to address the possibility of abusive degrees of optimization,
and in fact it does manage to remove it, but at a far too high
cost - by introducing character traits which the characters are
unable to discuss with each other, the same way D&D characters
can't discuss with each other what class(es) they are. In other
words, the naughty eight-letter word: metagame.

But Quest FRP is also about to come out in a new version. The
guys in Wisconsin have been working on a new version for the
last several years, and from what little they've leaked on the
mailing list that I run (QuestFRP on YahooGroups), it sounds
exciting. In fact it also sounds as if they've addressed at
least two of the concerns raised by Brian Gleichman in his
review of the system, posted in here earlier (was it really four
years ago? My memory sucks at finding out how long ago something
was...): The presence of real world religions (IMO a loss), and
the inability of weapons to kill or at least to incapacitate in
a single blow (now, apparently, weapons will do multiple dice of
damage, instead of always 1d6+N). A third neat feature is that
the sequential spell lists (10 levels, and (almost always) only
one spell per level) will be replaced with spell trees. I like
the idea, but am a bit concerned about how it can be graphically
represented (I wish the best of luck to Todd, Gene and the rest
of the designers!).

I'm excited about both these new projects (mostly Quest FRP, but
that's only because I know little about it - the designers are
stingy with info - whereas I have a quite good idea what GURPS
4th Edition will be like). You all know where to find GURPS 4th
edition, but as for the new edition of Quest FRP, I'll link to
it from my new website (URL yet to be announced) soon after I
become aware of its release.
--
Peter Knutsen
knutsen.dk
Chuk Goodin
2004-08-13 22:16:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chuk Goodin
I will be rude and follow up my own post in the next day or two.
My favourite RPGs (yes, favourite is not the same as "best" -- either
answer is interesting, though) are Hero, GURPS, Fudge, Risus, and Tri-Stat
dX.

Hero is the one I've played the most and for the longest, and it's
probably still the one that I would run the most if all external factors
were under my control. It's a little much for bringing in newbies (which
I've been doing a fair bit of lately), and there's something in it that
seems to push towards statting out every little tiny thing (there are
writeups available for towels and pen knives, and in Hero's point buy
system, those are a fair bit of "game code"). It's a bit more work to run
than I really have time for these days, too.

GURPS I see as kind of a more realistic version of Hero. I loved it back
when it first came out, and for a few years I didn't want to run anything
else. The sourcebooks are myriad and usually of high quality, but it never
really handled high-end gaming very well. Supers is probably my favourite
genre to game in, so GURPS kind of fell by the wayside for me. I do still
use it a fair bit, and I'm _very_ excited by what I've seen in Pyramid of
4th edition -- that and maybe GURPS Powers (due out August 2005,
apparently) might bring GURPS back to the top of the heap for me.

Fudge is fun for when I want a lighter game. My kids love it, and I'm
quite fond of the basic mechanic (I have only one set of Fudge dice, but
with the 3d6 and d100 charts on the character sheet, it's still pretty
simple). I run an online Fudge Supers game, and the flexiblility in the
subjective powers generation is wonderful freeing after years of Hero. I'd
also probably use Fudge for a quick pickup in almost any genre.

Risus is even lighter, and I think the writeup of it is near genius. It's
easy enough to stat up anyone in a minute or less, and the play is pretty
darn fluid. Like many light games, though, it relies a lot on GM
interpretations for the rules -- sometimes that's great, but I could see
players being uncomfortable with it. I haven't actually run anything in it
yet, but I probably will soon.

Tri-Stat is my new current favourite. It seems to strike a fairly happy
middle ground between Hero/GURPS and Fudge/Risus. I do find that I don't
like the 2dX bell curve (well, more of a triangle I guess), and there are
some niggling issues with the mechanics that might end up turning me away
from it (I think I'm going to adopt a roll-high mechanic for combat,
rather than the too-failure-prone method that they have). I'm running a
test supers game with it to see how it turns out.

Personally, I'd rather learn one generic game and do several
settings/campaigns with it than have to play a different one every time we
switch campaigns. I remember the first time I heard about a generic game
(I think it was GURPS), I thought that was just such a great advance.
--
chuk
Sea Wasp
2004-08-13 23:34:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chuk Goodin
Personally, I'd rather learn one generic game and do several
settings/campaigns with it than have to play a different one every time we
switch campaigns. I remember the first time I heard about a generic game
(I think it was GURPS), I thought that was just such a great advance.
I always thought the idea was nice, but about like the idea of peace
on Earth and Goodwill to All Men. It ain't happening in the Real
World. I've never seen one that really was generic and that I felt
happy USING. Generic games seem like generic labels on food; blank and
colorless.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/seawasp/
Jeff Heikkinen
2004-08-14 04:18:43 UTC
Permalink
Sea Wasp, worshipped by llamas the world over, wrote...
Post by Sea Wasp
Post by Chuk Goodin
Personally, I'd rather learn one generic game and do several
settings/campaigns with it than have to play a different one every time we
switch campaigns. I remember the first time I heard about a generic game
(I think it was GURPS), I thought that was just such a great advance.
I always thought the idea was nice, but about like the idea of peace
on Earth and Goodwill to All Men. It ain't happening in the Real
World. I've never seen one that really was generic and that I felt
happy USING. Generic games seem like generic labels on food; blank and
colorless.
I don't think GURPS is bland; what I do think, and you would no doubt
agree, is that the GU in the name is not true without serious
qualifications. It doesn't do self-consciously unrealistic genres like
heroic fantasy and supers well, and since that's 95% of what I'm
interested in...
--
Let's not let this drift into a topic about playing your alignment. I
have too much to do to be able to properly ridicule and post whore.
- Rob Singers
Sea Wasp
2004-08-14 10:35:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff Heikkinen
Sea Wasp, worshipped by llamas the world over, wrote...
Post by Sea Wasp
Post by Chuk Goodin
Personally, I'd rather learn one generic game and do several
settings/campaigns with it than have to play a different one every time we
switch campaigns. I remember the first time I heard about a generic game
(I think it was GURPS), I thought that was just such a great advance.
I always thought the idea was nice, but about like the idea of peace
on Earth and Goodwill to All Men. It ain't happening in the Real
World. I've never seen one that really was generic and that I felt
happy USING. Generic games seem like generic labels on food; blank and
colorless.
I don't think GURPS is bland;
I do, though I don't find it AS bland as Hero/Champs.


what I do think, and you would no doubt
Post by Jeff Heikkinen
agree, is that the GU in the name is not true without serious
qualifications. It doesn't do self-consciously unrealistic genres like
heroic fantasy and supers well, and since that's 95% of what I'm
interested in...
GURPS does tend to have more problems on the high power and cinematic
ends of the scale, though there are GURPS additional rules which try
to help out; the Space Opera Combat System (SOCS) from the GURPS
Lensman supplement, for instance.

Champs/Hero tends to have problems at the opposite end.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/seawasp/
David Meadows
2004-08-14 21:38:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sea Wasp
GURPS does tend to have more problems on the high power and cinematic
ends of the scale, though there are GURPS additional rules which try
to help out; the Space Opera Combat System (SOCS) from the GURPS
Lensman supplement, for instance.
Champs/Hero tends to have problems at the opposite end.
Meaning Champions can't handle "low powered" settings very well?
Interesting, because the only reason I migrated my superhero campaign from
Golden Heroes to Champions was because I wanted to dramatically cut the
power level and Champions handles low-powered characters much better than
Golden Heroes. (GURPS would probably have handled them even better, but I
wanted to leave myself scope for superpowers returning to the game -- and
GURPS Supers really sucks.)
--
David Meadows
"Hiding out on a pig farm saved my life." -- Don, Heroes #18
www.heroes.force9.co.uk/scripts
A comic book -- without the pictures
Sea Wasp
2004-08-14 22:56:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Meadows
Meaning Champions can't handle "low powered" settings very well?
Yes.
Post by David Meadows
Interesting, because the only reason I migrated my superhero campaign from
Golden Heroes to Champions was because I wanted to dramatically cut the
power level and Champions handles low-powered characters much better than
Golden Heroes.
Well, Golden Heroes is one of the few RPGs I've never even heard of,
so I can't judge on that end. All I know is that Champions is rotten
at discriminating between normal humans compared to many other games.

It's not as bad at it as AMBER, where Arnold Schwarzenegger and Woody
Allen have the same stats, but it's not nearly as good at it as GURPS
or many other systems.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/seawasp/
David Meadows
2004-08-15 08:04:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sea Wasp
Post by David Meadows
Meaning Champions can't handle "low powered" settings very well?
Yes.
Post by David Meadows
Interesting, because the only reason I migrated my superhero campaign from
Golden Heroes to Champions was because I wanted to dramatically cut the
power level and Champions handles low-powered characters much better than
Golden Heroes.
Well, Golden Heroes is one of the few RPGs I've never even heard of,
so I can't judge on that end. All I know is that Champions is rotten
at discriminating between normal humans compared to many other games.
It's not as bad at it as AMBER, where Arnold Schwarzenegger and Woody
Allen have the same stats, but it's not nearly as good at it as GURPS
or many other systems.
But both Champions and GURPS have the same granularity (1 - 20) for normal
human stats. You can't really say one is better than the other.
--
David Meadows
"Hiding out on a pig farm saved my life." -- Don, Heroes #18
www.heroes.force9.co.uk/scripts
A comic book -- without the pictures
David Meadows
2004-08-15 08:10:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Meadows
But both Champions and GURPS have the same granularity (1 - 20) for normal
human stats. You can't really say one is better than the other.
Doh! As soon as I sent that I realised how wrong I was. The Champions
granularity is an illusion -- game effects mostly occur in five-points
increments, whereas every point in GURPS makes a significant difference to
skills, so it does allow a finer tuning of normal-scale characters.
--
David Meadows
"Hiding out on a pig farm saved my life." -- Don, Heroes #18
www.heroes.force9.co.uk/scripts
A comic book -- without the pictures
Sea Wasp
2004-08-15 12:09:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Meadows
Post by David Meadows
But both Champions and GURPS have the same granularity (1 - 20) for normal
human stats. You can't really say one is better than the other.
Doh! As soon as I sent that I realised how wrong I was. The Champions
granularity is an illusion -- game effects mostly occur in five-points
increments, whereas every point in GURPS makes a significant difference to
skills, so it does allow a finer tuning of normal-scale characters.
I'm glad YOU caught it yourself, because I was going to make a
rather supercilious lecturing post on the illusion...
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/seawasp/
Zenobia
2004-08-15 15:57:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sea Wasp
Well, Golden Heroes is one of the few RPGs I've never even heard of,
It was an English RPG produced by Games Workshop - the people
who ran White Dwarf magazine while it was still an RPG magazine.
It's nearly 20 years old now. It was a nice system but I never
played it much as I don't do superhero games. You could pick it
up for a pittance on ebay. It was never popular. I bought my
copy for 1 or 2 pounds aeons ago.
David Meadows
2004-08-16 17:45:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zenobia
Post by Sea Wasp
Well, Golden Heroes is one of the few RPGs I've never even heard of,
It was an English RPG produced by Games Workshop - the people
who ran White Dwarf magazine while it was still an RPG magazine.
It's nearly 20 years old now. It was a nice system but I never
played it much as I don't do superhero games. You could pick it
up for a pittance on ebay. It was never popular. I bought my
copy for 1 or 2 pounds aeons ago.
I bought my copy --new-- in the "please take this dusty stock off our hands"
bin for about 1.99, only about two years after its release. That's how
popular it was.

Some of the core mechanisms were very clever, within the conventions of the
genre, but it's a fairly primitive system that required a lot of house
rules. I can see how beginning players, or players not willing to put in
effort to flesh out the rules, would get bored with it very quickly.

The original designer, Simon Burley, has reacquired the rights from Games
Workshop and is planning to reissue it in some form. You can find PDFs of
the rules on his Yahoo group if you want to check it out,
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/golden-heroes/
--
David Meadows
"Hiding out on a pig farm saved my life." -- Don, Heroes #18
www.heroes.force9.co.uk/scripts
A comic book -- without the pictures
Chuk Goodin
2004-08-16 21:00:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff Heikkinen
what I do think, and you would no doubt
Post by Jeff Heikkinen
agree, is that the GU in the name is not true without serious
qualifications. It doesn't do self-consciously unrealistic genres like
heroic fantasy and supers well, and since that's 95% of what I'm
interested in...
GURPS does tend to have more problems on the high power and cinematic
ends of the scale, though there are GURPS additional rules which try
to help out; the Space Opera Combat System (SOCS) from the GURPS
Lensman supplement, for instance.
It looks like 4th edition may handle some of this (not so much on the
Space Opera Combat level, but on the super-powered character level).
Post by Jeff Heikkinen
Champs/Hero tends to have problems at the opposite end.
Some, yes, although I'd say Hero's low end is better than GURPS' high end.
--
chuk
Sea Wasp
2004-08-16 22:06:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chuk Goodin
Post by Sea Wasp
Champs/Hero tends to have problems at the opposite end.
Some, yes, although I'd say Hero's low end is better than GURPS' high end.
I'll admit to being less concerned with the low end than the high,
and if I worry about it at all, there's worse games, like AMBER, out
there.

However, even Champs dies at the really high end. No RPG handles all
power levels equally well.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/seawasp/
Chuk Goodin
2004-08-17 18:02:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sea Wasp
However, even Champs dies at the really high end. No RPG handles all
power levels equally well.
Some of the rules-light ones do pretty well, but I can't really think of
one that would handle all of them in the same campaign.
--
chuk
Chuk Goodin
2004-08-16 20:58:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sea Wasp
Post by Chuk Goodin
Personally, I'd rather learn one generic game and do several
settings/campaigns with it than have to play a different one every time we
switch campaigns. I remember the first time I heard about a generic game
(I think it was GURPS), I thought that was just such a great advance.
I always thought the idea was nice, but about like the idea of peace
on Earth and Goodwill to All Men. It ain't happening in the Real
World.
Oh, it happens plenty in the Real World. Maybe not the part _you_ live in,
though.
Post by Sea Wasp
I've never seen one that really was generic and that I felt
happy USING. Generic games seem like generic labels on food; blank and
colorless.
Generic labels on food are great -- instead of wasting resources on
designing the can and box, use them on making the food better. Should cost
less, too. (Now, generic food, on the other hand...)
--
chuk
Sea Wasp
2004-08-16 22:04:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chuk Goodin
Post by Sea Wasp
Post by Chuk Goodin
Personally, I'd rather learn one generic game and do several
settings/campaigns with it than have to play a different one every time we
switch campaigns. I remember the first time I heard about a generic game
(I think it was GURPS), I thought that was just such a great advance.
I always thought the idea was nice, but about like the idea of peace
on Earth and Goodwill to All Men. It ain't happening in the Real
World.
Oh, it happens plenty in the Real World. Maybe not the part _you_ live in,
though.
Post by Sea Wasp
I've never seen one that really was generic and that I felt
happy USING. Generic games seem like generic labels on food; blank and
colorless.
Generic labels on food are great -- instead of wasting resources on
designing the can and box, use them on making the food better.
That isn't the way it works. They then produce generic food.

Which is the way generic RPGs work, to my mind. GURPS is slightly
better than Champs, but they're both mostly tasteless.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/seawasp/
Chuk Goodin
2004-08-17 18:03:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sea Wasp
Which is the way generic RPGs work, to my mind. GURPS is slightly
better than Champs, but they're both mostly tasteless.
I consider them more to be invisible -- the system doesn't get in the way
of the game.
--
chuk
Brandon Cope
2004-08-17 22:57:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sea Wasp
Post by Chuk Goodin
Post by Sea Wasp
Post by Chuk Goodin
Personally, I'd rather learn one generic game and do several
settings/campaigns with it than have to play a different one every time we
switch campaigns. I remember the first time I heard about a generic game
(I think it was GURPS), I thought that was just such a great advance.
I always thought the idea was nice, but about like the idea of peace
on Earth and Goodwill to All Men. It ain't happening in the Real
World.
Oh, it happens plenty in the Real World. Maybe not the part _you_ live in,
though.
Post by Sea Wasp
I've never seen one that really was generic and that I felt
happy USING. Generic games seem like generic labels on food; blank and
colorless.
Generic labels on food are great -- instead of wasting resources on
designing the can and box, use them on making the food better.
That isn't the way it works. They then produce generic food.
Which is the way generic RPGs work, to my mind. GURPS is slightly
better than Champs, but they're both mostly tasteless.
Then the GM isn't doing enough to bring out the setting.

The only time the game system should become visible is when dice have to be rolled.

Brandon
Sea Wasp
2004-08-17 23:42:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brandon Cope
Then the GM isn't doing enough to bring out the setting.
The only time the game system should become visible is when dice have to be rolled.
That is your opinion. It does not coincide with mine. I believe a
game system should assist directly in the emulation of the world. That
means that the mechanics should in some manner reflect the behavior of
the abilities being used. I.e., I should be able to watch a game and
tell, just by the mechanics someone's using, that they're playing a
mage, that another person is playing a psi, and another guy's a techie.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/seawasp/
Chuk Goodin
2004-08-18 19:39:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sea Wasp
That is your opinion. It does not coincide with mine. I believe a
game system should assist directly in the emulation of the world. That
means that the mechanics should in some manner reflect the behavior of
the abilities being used. I.e., I should be able to watch a game and
tell, just by the mechanics someone's using, that they're playing a
mage, that another person is playing a psi, and another guy's a techie.
That's a neat idea, but in the real world, it just doesn't happen. No
games out now do this.

It'd be really easy for a computer game, though.
--
chuk
Sea Wasp
2004-08-18 22:35:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chuk Goodin
Post by Sea Wasp
That is your opinion. It does not coincide with mine. I believe a
game system should assist directly in the emulation of the world. That
means that the mechanics should in some manner reflect the behavior of
the abilities being used. I.e., I should be able to watch a game and
tell, just by the mechanics someone's using, that they're playing a
mage, that another person is playing a psi, and another guy's a techie.
That's a neat idea, but in the real world, it just doesn't happen. No
games out now do this.
Well, I could tell who was a psi, who was a fighter, and who was a
mage in D&D1e just by the sequence of rolls and events, without being
told the details. Mages didn't roll to use their powers, had to
memorize them and therefore had very limited uses of them in strictly
defined increments, etc. Fighters had to roll but had no worry of
point expenditure; they could fight all day long with no limits. Psis
had sometimes several rolls (of percentile dice, not D20s) to use
their powers, had a number of points they could distribute for use of
their powers, almost never gained new powers (as opposed to mages who
got new ones every level), and so on.

Other games have/had similar differing mechanics.

So, I'm afraid I'll have to say... you are wrong.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/seawasp/
Zenobia
2004-08-15 15:41:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chuk Goodin
(3E is NOT the best overall RPG, IMCGO, one should note. It's the
best incarnation of D&D, IMCGO. I'd be hard-pressed to decide on one
"best" RPG; I'd probably have to select one in each category, but even
in Fantasy, no version of D&D would win)
This made me wonder what he would select as the best RPG (or even the best
in each category). Then it was only a short step to "And what would
everybody else think?"
So, what are people's favourite RPGs? Maybe broken down into categories,
maybe just one for everything. Why is that your favourite? I'm more
interested in hearing about actual published systems rather than just "I
like this home-made mishmash I've been using for twenty years", but if
your mishmash handles something in an innovative way, that might be
interesting, too.
I will be rude and follow up my own post in the next day or two.
Years ago I spent a lot of time playing as many systems as I
could and acquiring all the so-called best systems (chosen from
advice by the RPG gaming elite).

I came to the conclusion that a good system should be simple and
consistent. Simple, as in easy to play for people who aren't
particularly good at mental arithmetic. The acid test being that
one should be able to play well after a few glasses of wine or a
few tokes. Consistent in that it should have a universal
mechanic.

Two of the systems I'd looked at, Lee Gold's "Land's of
Adventure" and FASA's "Dr. Who" were used as templates for a
home-brew system. My system played very well. It remains the
best mechanic I've ever played.

Since then I've come across some nice systems. Fudge and 'Over
the Edge'. Tri-stat looks good too. GURPs and Hero fail the test
of simplicity. Too many dice.

I wouldn't say that the background of the afore-mentioned games
is what I'm looking for. But 'Over the Edge' has several nice
features.

My preferred backgrounds are Bushido, Call of Cthulhu and
Tekumel. I have a real soft-spot for detailed individualized
fantasy like: Stormbringer/Eric, Dying Earth, Sorceror, Tekumel
where the designer has imposed real limits upon the fantasy and
world design. But I also like historical-fantasy mish-mashes
such as ancient Egypt, Bushido, Call of Cthulhu, medieval China
('All men are Brothers') and post-medieval Europe
(swashbucklers, pirates, Alexander Scott's Maelstrom). Although
I like fantasy I generally hate the magic systems present in
fantasy games unless then tie-in with the world.

I doubt whether there's such as thing as an ideal game. Favorite
worlds such as the 3 previously mentioned have both good and bad
points. Coherence in the world is quite important. Setting real
social limits upon PCs and NPCs which are independent of GM or
player fancies. Complex societies with which to interact with.
These are the sorts of things I look for in an RPG.

The best overall RPG depends upon the player and what the player
wants out of the game.
Dare
2004-08-15 23:35:45 UTC
Permalink
***@sfu.ca (Chuk Goodin) wrote in message news:<cfgrst$h81$***@morgoth.sfu.ca>...
<snip>
Post by Chuk Goodin
So, what are people's favourite RPGs? Maybe broken down into categories,
maybe just one for everything. Why is that your favourite? I'm more
interested in hearing about actual published systems rather than just "I
like this home-made mishmash I've been using for twenty years", but if
your mishmash handles something in an innovative way, that might be
interesting, too.
I keep meaning to crossbreed Shadowrun with GURPS...

GURPS is probably my favorite adaptable system; given a casual idea
for an iron age planet-hopping setting with earth-shaking magic that's
exclusively item-based, GURPS would be my system of choice. It's easy
to take stuff apart and put it back together. (Though I hate the
"default" GURPS magic system, there are enough others that I can
always find a replacement for the task at hand; heck, I'd probably use
GURPS: Vehicles for that example, assigning a high tech level to magic
items.)

Shadowrun 2ed(w/ SR Companion) is close to being my favorite "tall"
system, i.e. stretching from gritty to fairly epic. There are a few
problems, like the "double jeopardy" flavor of opposed tests, and the
granularity of damage(10 HP plus 10 subdual HP for everybody, and an
attack can only do 1, 3, 6, or 10 damage), but if I was doing
Highlander or another very tall setting, I'd start with Shadowrun.

Shadowrun 2ed is also my favorite system for flavor. I tend to prefer
"high-performance" systems, so "favorite" is usually based on "best",
but there's something ineffably cool about how Shadowrun goes
together. Even the magic system is cyberpunky. And nothing says
"you've made it" like the words "Luxury Lifestyle" on your character
sheet.

d20 is my second favorite "tall" system, as it doesn't do gritty very
well, but has a good range from somewhat-epic to really-epic. Again
there are problems, like classes, HD for all classes, multiclassing
math, and the base mechanic being additive(with a +1000 base attack, a
mob with a +1024 AC is all but untouchable), but with a sufficiently
dramatist(has that changed to "narrativist" now?) or gamist
perspective, you can look away from all the handwaving.

Overall, I'd have to go with GURPS, but that's probably because I
burned out on sword & sorcery years ago, and started running unusual
campaigns... Like the simply-titled Fairies!(office politics in a
Ferngully-inspired fairy glade), or Here There Be Dragons(kinda Ars
Magica meets Cliffhangers with dragons, the PCs are elemental dragons
awakened from centuries of slumber, and set about claiming and
organizing their realms), or Stellar Navy(working on it now, the PCs
and many NPCs are planet-sized computer intelligences, who travel
about the universe using stars as warp vessels).

- Dare, GURPSist extraordinaire and plenipotentiary

* "Well what if there *is* no tomorrow? There wasn't one today!" -
Groundhog Day
* Hi! I'm a .sig virus! Join the fun and copy me into yours! :)
Petteri Hannila
2004-08-17 07:10:32 UTC
Permalink
: ***@sfu.ca (Chuk Goodin) wrote in message news:<cfgrst$h81$***@morgoth.sfu.ca>...
: <snip>
:> So, what are people's favourite RPGs? Maybe broken down into categories,
:> maybe just one for everything. Why is that your favourite? I'm more
:> interested in hearing about actual published systems rather than just "I
:> like this home-made mishmash I've been using for twenty years", but if
:> your mishmash handles something in an innovative way, that might be
:> interesting, too.

Well, gurps was what I loved back in the 90's when I was introduced to it, previous to
that it was RuneQuest. Now i'm playing my homebrew Chaos & Order:

overview: http://www.cc.jyu.fi/~jphannil/co_overview.pdf
rules and examples: http://www.cc.jyu.fi/~jphannil/chaos_order.pdf

(I hope I didn't break any group policies when posting this) :)

Speaking of generic games, C&O is aiming to become generic. However not only
generic on setting-wise but also generic on playing style -wise (I'm going to
include rules or notes how to use C&O in different gaming styles). Also I am
trying to make the game such that it will support the distinctive feel of the
spesific game world -> so generic system wouldn't be bland.

This is still a work in progress (and it may never be true) but I'm trying to
make a generic game, that isn't bland.

***************************************
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* stopping of the quitting ? *
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***************************************
Petteri Hannila (***@nouspamcc.jyu.fi)
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