Discussion:
Pace of Decision
(too old to reply)
gleichman
2006-10-18 16:27:05 UTC
Permalink
This is bashed together from a number of posts I made on another forum.
I'm putting it here because Peter mentioned the concept, and what the
heck. Doug said post, so I'm posting.

I make edit it futher and add it to my other 'Elements' articles...

__________________________________

I nearly always consider Pace of Decision first when examining a game
or designing one for it is what is most likely to be directly in the
face of the player (if he recognizes it or not).

For one-on-one combat, there are three important points:

1. What is the Minimum length a battle can be
2. What is the Average length of a battle.
3. What is Standard Deviation of that average length.

These should be answered for equal opponents and it should be measured
in rounds, which in turn consider at their core *one* set of decisions
by the player. Most games define their 'round' in some detail so that
part is easy.

In the case of games like D&D, the answers vary greatly depending upon
the 'level' of the character in question, their gear and the like. So
you may have to determine the value for a number of what you consider
'break' points in character advancement.

The third value is nice to have, but I've never actually calculated it
and have gone with the playtest 'feel'.

Thus Pace of Decision determines risk and the number of choices the
character needs to make. At it's simplest, it's how long a battle
lasts.

A low Minimum and low Average means you have a high Pace of Decision
game while of course higher numbers lower the Pace. Standard Deviation
determines how random it is.

Once you know the Pace, you can look over the *significant* options
provided in the game be they Manuever, Resource Management or
Dissimilar Assets usage (see
http://home.comcast.net/~b.gleichman/Theory/elements/Tactics.htm). The
combination of these determine the tactical complexity.

How hard or easy a job it is to determine the three points for Pact of
Decision is completely dependent upon the system. It comes down to
math. Case in point, dice pools require far more work than most other
systems. You'd have to tailor your approach individually to each set of
mechanics.

For an example, let's walk through a simple example of a D&D like
combat system. To keep it easy, no crit rules, single attack per round.
Nothing fancy.

You pick what you think is a typical combat example, or milestone of
your choice in character progresson. You pair off identical opponents
and start running the numbers.

So in our simplified D&D like system, let's take a pair of combatants
who each have 40 HP and with typical weapons and armor need a 11+ to
hit each other on a D20 doing 1d8+2 weapon damage. In this type of
system, it's basically all Damage per Round numbers.

1. What is the Minimum length:

This would be the case where an attacker rolls successful hits with max
damage each round. With 1d8+2, that means 10 points per round or 4
rounds.

2. What is the Average length

This takes only a little more work in our simple example. The average
roll for 1d8+2 is 6.5 and the attacks only hit half the time. Since the
target has 40 hit points, it would take 40/6.5*2 or 13 rounds (round
up) to resolve the battle on average.

3. What is Standard Deviation

The last step is to determine how randomly the results vary from the
average. Here the math gets much more serious. However it can be
avoided if you have programming skills by modeling the battle in code
and running it several thousand times, then running a Standard
Deviation on the results.

I hope you don't mind if I skip that for this example . Instead I'll
just say that given the number of what is in effect cumulative die
rolls required (on average 6-7 damage rolls) the SD is going to be on
the low side.

So our example system is slow pace with its Minimum of 4, Average of 13
and low Standard Deviation.


A real system is more complex.

D20 for example has crits (easy to deal with as they only increase
damage), increasing HP per level, increasing number of attacks per
level, expected gear per level, etc.

If the effects of increasing level are very significant, you'll want to
do this analysis at a number of different points until you get a feel
for how it changes with advancement. This is very much the case in D&D,
but non-existent in something like Age of Heroes.

The last step is to examine the system for things that alter the Pace
of Decision. In D&D magical healing slows it while many offensive
spells reduce it. These are generally too great in number to do actual
calculations on in mass, but are easy to examine one at a time.

The idea is to look for a baseline, and then examine how the system
varies around that.


Pace of Decision directly effects the game's style of play. One man's
benefit is another's drawback, but leaving that aside there are
characteristics that are important to bear in mind. Let's look over
some examples.


Low Pace: Example Min 4, Average 13, SD low

Classic D&D falls in here.

In this style of game one generally has a lot of time to respond to
events. "Joe's in trouble! If we don't get to him in 3 rounds he's a
goner!"

Generally Manuever doesn't work well in this type of game as the
opponent has time to correct any mistakes.

Resource Management on the other hand can have huge impact, Especially
if by its use a player can significant lower the Pace for a period.
Battles are typical won and lost on this single element.

High Pace: Example Min 1, Average 4, SD low

Age of Heroes falls in this lonely group

Here one may find that time is not on their side, and find that out
quickly. "Joe's in trouble! Opps, Joe is gone!".

Manuever is the key element here. If you're not where you need to be
when you need to be... well, let's say that could get messy.

Resource Management can still be of importance, but in comparison it no
longer has such overwhelming influence over the outcome.

One interesting characteristic I noticed in play is that players tend
to seek Resource Options (generally spells and the like) that reverse
the normal Pace of Decision at a key point. Just thought I'd throw that
in


"0 Pace": Min 1, Average 1, SD 0

These are your one step resolution systems. "Whoever rolls higher on a
d6 wins the fight!" is the basic idea although it can have a lot more
behind it.

This Pace finds favor with those who want the game mechanics to get out
of the way. No room for much in the way of decision making beyond the
decision to fight at all.

Any Manuever is pre-combat, and Resource Management is handled in one
step. You pay your ante and take your chances...



If you play with the various combinations, I'm sure you can see all
sorts of interesting outcomes and changes.
Erol K. Bayburt
2006-10-19 00:07:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by gleichman
Low Pace: Example Min 4, Average 13, SD low
Classic D&D falls in here.
In this style of game one generally has a lot of time to respond to
events. "Joe's in trouble! If we don't get to him in 3 rounds he's a
goner!"
Generally Manuever doesn't work well in this type of game as the
opponent has time to correct any mistakes.
Resource Management on the other hand can have huge impact, Especially
if by its use a player can significant lower the Pace for a period.
Battles are typical won and lost on this single element.
High Pace: Example Min 1, Average 4, SD low
Age of Heroes falls in this lonely group
Here one may find that time is not on their side, and find that out
quickly. "Joe's in trouble! Opps, Joe is gone!".
Manuever is the key element here. If you're not where you need to be
when you need to be... well, let's say that could get messy.
What do you mean by "Maneuver"?

It strikes me that what's important in your high pace example is not
what I'd call "Maneuver" but rather "Formation" - if your initial
formation is wrong, you're dead. Or if your opponent manages to break
your Formation on first contact, you're dead. (OTOH, your opponent
only gets one shot at it - if your opponent fails to break your
formation on his first try, then *he's* dead before he gets a chance
to try again.)

In your "low pace" example, what I'd call "Maneuver" becomes important
- the movement choices you make, in response to what your opponent
does, become important to whether you win or lose, live or die.

But I suspect that you mean something else by "Maneuver" and that you
consider a character's movement ability to be a Resource to be
Managed, in combat. Yes? No?
--
Erol K. Bayburt
***@aol.com
gleichman
2006-10-19 00:59:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Erol K. Bayburt
What do you mean by "Maneuver"?
Character movement in relationship to his enviroment.
Post by Erol K. Bayburt
It strikes me that what's important in your high pace example is not
what I'd call "Maneuver" but rather "Formation" - if your initial
formation is wrong, you're dead.
Nope, not in the example given for High Pace anyway. There the average is
still high enough to allow fluid maneuver on the field while the minimum
value of 1 and high SD allows for suprise twists resulting in quick breaks
as well as rather lengthy stalemates.

As Pace of Decision increases towards "0 Pace" however, initial contact
importance does increase until it reaches the point where it becomes
everything.

Upon reflection, I should have perhaps called this a Medium Pace. But at the
time I made the tool, few games approached it at all. Most that weren't much
slower went straight to 0 Pace.
Post by Erol K. Bayburt
In your "low pace" example, what I'd call "Maneuver" becomes important
- the movement choices you make, in response to what your opponent
does, become important to whether you win or lose, live or die.
Not really as the chance of serious damage in a single or few rounds isn't
significant (assuming a high min and low SD as in the example). If someone
screws up- just move again next round to correct the problem.

Maneuver in such a system only becomes highly important if there also exists
a way to fix your opponents position. Anti-Maneuver tactical options if you
will. Web and Ice wall comes to mind in D&D. These are typically resource
management options but can be pure Maneuver in the case of hard and solid
zone of control rules.

Also note that it's not that Maneuver is unimportant in such systems- only
that by nature it is of less immediate importance, and of less importance
than Resource Management (assuming the game makes use of such).
Post by Erol K. Bayburt
But I suspect that you mean something else by "Maneuver" and that you
consider a character's movement ability to be a Resource to be
Managed, in combat. Yes? No?
Not normally. A Resource is something expended in use- few games take that
tack with movement (and those that do typicaly have 'fuel' as the resource,
not Maneuver).
Erol K. Bayburt
2006-10-19 04:13:15 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 18 Oct 2006 19:59:57 -0500, "gleichman"
Post by gleichman
Post by Erol K. Bayburt
What do you mean by "Maneuver"?
Character movement in relationship to his enviroment.
Post by Erol K. Bayburt
It strikes me that what's important in your high pace example is not
what I'd call "Maneuver" but rather "Formation" - if your initial
formation is wrong, you're dead.
Nope, not in the example given for High Pace anyway. There the average is
still high enough to allow fluid maneuver on the field while the minimum
value of 1 and high SD allows for suprise twists resulting in quick breaks
as well as rather lengthy stalemates.
Well, my mileage varies. It seems to me that in a combat where the
outcome is decided in 4 turns, on average, is too short for maneuver
to be meaningful. Initial formation is more important than how you
choose to move during the fight. Part of this is that I see moving &
acting as often requiring *two* turns (and sometimes more), so that if
Joe is in trouble in your high pace game, then Jane has to already be
in position to succor Joe. Maneuver doesn't matter.

But if Joe is in trouble in your low-pace example, and it takes two or
three turns for Jane to move into position and then provide succor -
that's tight and interesting timing where Jane has to Maneuver and
act.
Post by gleichman
As Pace of Decision increases towards "0 Pace" however, initial contact
importance does increase until it reaches the point where it becomes
everything.
As I see it, initial contact is already >50% of the battle if the
average fight only lasts 4 turns.
Post by gleichman
Upon reflection, I should have perhaps called this a Medium Pace. But at the
time I made the tool, few games approached it at all. Most that weren't much
slower went straight to 0 Pace.
Post by Erol K. Bayburt
In your "low pace" example, what I'd call "Maneuver" becomes important
- the movement choices you make, in response to what your opponent
does, become important to whether you win or lose, live or die.
Not really as the chance of serious damage in a single or few rounds isn't
significant (assuming a high min and low SD as in the example). If someone
screws up- just move again next round to correct the problem.
*Partially* correct the problem, IME. The opponent still has an
advantage after getting a lucky break or having your side screw up -
just not enough for an automatic victory.
Post by gleichman
Maneuver in such a system only becomes highly important if there also exists
a way to fix your opponents position. Anti-Maneuver tactical options if you
will. Web and Ice wall comes to mind in D&D. These are typically resource
management options but can be pure Maneuver in the case of hard and solid
zone of control rules.
D&D 3.x also has Attacks of Opportunity. FWIW
Post by gleichman
Also note that it's not that Maneuver is unimportant in such systems- only
that by nature it is of less immediate importance, and of less importance
than Resource Management (assuming the game makes use of such).
I sort of look at it as a battle of 12 turns that can be subdivided
into 3 sub-battles of 4 turns each. Each sub-battle has a high pace of
decision (for its subgoal), and each affects the next sub-battle. And
if one side wins the first two sub-battles, the other side is in a
hole - the other side either has to pull out a double-strength win in
the last sub-battle to even eke out a draw, or else it's just a matter
of how much damage the other side can do as it goes down.

(Of course things are a bit more fluid than a rigid division of 4
turns x3, but that's the general concept.)

OTOH if a battle is over in 3-4 turns, that strikes me as a very high
pace with initial formation bulking large over maneuver during those
3-4 turns, and the fight being over without any one character being
able to *do* all that much.

With 12 turn combats, I find each turn's decision to be big enough to
be meaningful but also small enough to be meaningful, if you take my
meaning. Small enough that a bad die roll, or a sub-optimal decision,
or a cunning move by the opponent, isn't the whole combat right there.

With 4 turn combats, every decision I make has to be the "right"
decision which means that I don't really have a choice (and that I
generally can't make the decision myself, for my character - its
better to let the Committee of Players, or the best player-tactician,
make the final call). From my point of view, there's no time for real
maneuver in a battle, no meaningful decisions to make, and no gamism
in the game.

Maybe its because you play at a higher level of expertise and
maneuver-precision than most people, that you see a maneuver-slack
resource-management exercise in games where most of the rest of us see
plenty of interesting maneuver-opportunities.

(And where some see *too much* Maneuver for their tastes, and complain
about the game being too wargamey if a board-and-miniatures are used
for combats.)

Or to put it yet another way (and to invoke a slightly exaggerated
analogy) I want a battle in a RPG to be more like a whole game of
chess, while your preference strikes me as being more like one of
those "find the mate-in-four" chess problems.
Post by gleichman
Post by Erol K. Bayburt
But I suspect that you mean something else by "Maneuver" and that you
consider a character's movement ability to be a Resource to be
Managed, in combat. Yes? No?
Not normally. A Resource is something expended in use- few games take that
tack with movement (and those that do typicaly have 'fuel' as the resource,
not Maneuver).
OK
--
Erol K. Bayburt
***@aol.com
gleichman
2006-10-19 12:15:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Erol K. Bayburt
Well, my mileage varies. It seems to me that in a combat where the
outcome is decided in 4 turns, on average, is too short for maneuver
to be meaningful.
That depends upon how much ground you can cover in a typical battle map- and
how individual tactical decisions can alter the Pace of Decision. Magic
often doesn't have to move at all to be brought into play against targets a
map away (but deciding that target is still a Maneuver style decision while
it's use at all is Resource Managment).

Typically a single round in most rpgs allows you to cover a huge amount of
ground in a real sense. In Age of Heroes (where the fastest characters
typical are barely above the slowest D&D ones) a character equiped for High
PoD would move 6" or 7"- including the option of the endangered character
falling back, we're talking about a 'assist' distance of about 1/4 of the
common battle map (60 feet in scale). If you're that far out of position,
High PoD assumes you deserve what you get.

Also in any game there are the tactical choices you can make that alters the
baseline PoD.

In Age of Heroes with its Pace of around 4- there are methods to slow Pace.
Going full parry can almost cut it in half, wearing heavy armor up front
will reduce it from the start, etc. As I noted in the article: High Pace
games tend to have methods to slow PoD as key tactical decisions while Slow
Pace games tend to have ways of speeding it up.
Post by Erol K. Bayburt
As I see it, initial contact is already >50% of the battle if the
average fight only lasts 4 turns.
The typical multiple character battle doesn't last 4 turns. I think you're
attempting to read "everything" into PoD.

It didn't account for Initial movement to contact (The chess Opening to use
your exampe), you haven't account for altering PoD by tactical choice, you
haven't considered multiple character battle in which individual combats can
be lost on both sides while the overall battle is still open to as to victor
(the chess Middle Game).

The PoD number is a baseline, not a complete overview of all the Elements.
It gives a clue as to the core mechanics of the game are suppose to play, it
doesn't completely define it.
Post by Erol K. Bayburt
Post by gleichman
Not really as the chance of serious damage in a single or few rounds isn't
significant (assuming a high min and low SD as in the example). If someone
screws up- just move again next round to correct the problem.
*Partially* correct the problem, IME. The opponent still has an
advantage after getting a lucky break or having your side screw up -
just not enough for an automatic victory.
Lucky breaks can over the course of battle swing to one side or the other.
It should be obvious that the longer the battle- the more time one has to
recover from a bad break.

There are systems while early luck (or smart) breaks do basically determine
all that follows. Systems with Death Spirals are the prime example. Again,
PoD is the baseline- one then looks for what alters it in the whole system.
Post by Erol K. Bayburt
D&D 3.x also has Attacks of Opportunity. FWIW
Haven't played, so I haven't considered the exact impact. Much of D&D 3.x
seemed gear to increasing the PoD, at least for pure melee combat.
Post by Erol K. Bayburt
I sort of look at it as a battle of 12 turns that can be subdivided
into 3 sub-battles of 4 turns each.
From here I think your reply breaks down into preference. You're basically
saying the same things I am, but you're expressing a different opinion about
the result.

I'm fine with that. If Age of Heroes is too quick and demanding for your
taste- it's too quick and demanding. If D&D is your perfect fit, it's your
perfect fit.

Whatever you decision on this, I think from what you've written the basic
concept of PoD still applies even in your viewpoint: High PoD places a
higher level of importance per decision than Low PoD does and allows less
room for errors. Low PoD allows recovery from errors and places its outcome
upon the sum of a large number of small decisions.
Erol K. Bayburt
2006-10-19 13:42:34 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 07:15:23 -0500, "gleichman"
Post by gleichman
From here I think your reply breaks down into preference. You're basically
saying the same things I am, but you're expressing a different opinion about
the result.
I think you're right.
Post by gleichman
I'm fine with that. If Age of Heroes is too quick and demanding for your
taste- it's too quick and demanding. If D&D is your perfect fit, it's your
perfect fit.
Whatever you decision on this, I think from what you've written the basic
concept of PoD still applies even in your viewpoint: High PoD places a
higher level of importance per decision than Low PoD does and allows less
room for errors. Low PoD allows recovery from errors and places its outcome
upon the sum of a large number of small decisions.
Yes. What I don't follow is how a moderately high PoD therefore puts
more importance on Maneuver and a lower PoD puts less importance on
Maneuver. It seems to me that a high PoD crimps Maneuver, while
Maneover can be very important in a low PoD combat (e.g. the "Klingon
Sabre Dance" in Starfleet Battles).

So when I intrepret you as claiming that you like a high PoD because
it makes Maneuver more important... I have to conclude that either I'm
misunderstanding what you're saying, or else that you have an unusual
style that produces results that are the opposite from what I, or most
of the gamers I know, would get. If the latter, you also come across
to me as not groking just how unusual your style is and how it
produces that reversed result.

But I think its more likely that I'm misunderstading you.
--
Erol K. Bayburt
***@aol.com
gleichman
2006-10-19 14:49:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Erol K. Bayburt
Yes. What I don't follow is how a moderately high PoD therefore puts
more importance on Maneuver and a lower PoD puts less importance on
Maneuver. It seems to me that a high PoD crimps Maneuver, while
Maneover can be very important in a low PoD combat (e.g. the "Klingon
Sabre Dance" in Starfleet Battles).
Starfleet Battles is a different critter than any of the three examples
I gave. Speaking in general terms it would be:

Minimum: 1
Average: High
SD: High


In SFB, if you screw up badly enough it is very possible to die in a
single round. The way to avoid this is to stay outside your foe's
"death zone" and you do this by Maneuver.

Assuming your Maneuver is generally correct and thus you avoid hurling
yourself to the Minimum (with the Sabre Dance and Retro-grade being
prime examples), the Average encounter is rather lengthy with final
victory going to he who made the fewest small mistakes over the entire
engagement.

To this it combines rather wild swings of fortune at some points (Fed
photons being the best example) that can significant vary your outcome
from that average.

It's a different critter completely from the three examples I gave
before.

It's also a good example of how PoD can vary in different games.

1. It can vary by level (D&D)
2. It can vary by equipment (Age of Heroes)
3. It can vary by range of battle (Star Fleet battles)
4. It can be varied by expending Resources

Anything that includes #3 will increase the importance of Maneuver,
even if that Maneuver is (completely IMO) rather repetitive like some
SFB tactics.

Anything that includes #4 will increase the importance of Resource
Management.

A Minimum of 1 in PoD always has a huge impact, what type of impact
depends completely how how that 1 round resolution is achieved.

A single game could include all four. And I've likely left some
influences out.
Post by Erol K. Bayburt
But I think its more likely that I'm misunderstading you.
If true, I have little doubt that the fault is more mine than yours.
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